NEW GROUP BUY Coordinator NEEDED

[ScottM]

not sure who to email or contact but,

I am going to step down as the group buy coordinator for the BRS.

too much conflict, complaining, and lack of communication among the BRS vendors about the BRS sponsorship plan and the BRS in general.

the immense difficulty in obtaining quotes, constant greed, infighing, and politics has driven me to this decision.

I am guessing the BOD will need to approve the incomming individual.

Once the BOD clear up the sponsorship plan, Anyone interested in filling the spot?

[~Flighty~]

I hope I didn't do anything wrong with the anemone group. I expected it to be a few people sharring shipping cost, not 23 people getting RBTAs:o .

[Scuba_Dave]

Having run a few group buys, I know some of the hassle involved. Hat's off to you Scott for what you have accomplished

[Armando]

That's a toughy. Good luck to the next one.

[ScottM]

I hope I didn't do anything wrong with the anemone group. I expected it to be a few people sharring shipping cost, not 23 people getting RBTAs:o .
OH not at all. if i had a job and extra room, it would be 24 Rbta's. :D
your group purchase was GREAT! I VOTE FOR MORE OF THOSE BUYS!

unless the BOD states otherwise, this forum is FOR EVERYONE. and every vendor.

there were group buys that i handled that were sent out to the sponsors on a monthly basis. it was these buys that caused the difficulty. My interpretation of the coordinator role was to take collective ideas on a monthly basis to the sponsors and search out the best price. this occured through the BOD emailing our sponsors as well as including an email to ALL BRS members NOT JUST those that monitored the forum.


if LFS wanted to step in and offer competative pricing they have the ability to post directly to your thread. i believe that if there is a better price to be had online or outside of the sponsorship then by all means go get it. we do need to support our LFS as well, i just feel that loyalty can go only so far into my wallet. sometimes outside and online vendors can supply us with much better pricing than the LFS.

I will still participate in group buys and may even organize a few personal buys, but not as a representative/coordinator for the BRS.
I hold nothing against the club and i think its a GREAT group. i am just tired of the LFS bickering because of the different Sponsorship agreement interpretations.
as an individual consumer/friend of most LFS, I am constantly get caught in the middle of the differing interpretations. If my friendships didn't run so deep with the LFS owners, i would have a very different opinion. I think once some guidelines are laid down with the sponsorship plan, things will run alot smoother for the replacement

[Greg Hiller]

Scott,

Thanks for your work on this. I understand the problems you had quite well. Unfortunately, there is no easy solution to these problems that everyone is happy with.

[Armando]

I will still participate in group buys and may even organize a few personal buys
how about a halide bulb group buy? Marc was interested in sponsoring it.

[PenMan]

I know that it is alot of work to do all of the buys. Would it be practical to have have a person in charge of each buy and a person to co-ordinate all of the buys? It looks like we really do need someone to keep the sponsors group buys straight. I looks like Flighty's Rose BTA went well.

[Armando]

I'm not sure if there will be enough people interested in organizing group buys. I organized a few of them and especially after the last one I don't think I'll ever want to do this again. Not so much for the work, which is a lot indeed, but for the fact that after all the work people can stab you on your back. A simple "thank you" would have been nice. I already put it behind and moved on. Just mentioned as a heads up for the next organizers.

[IffersTankSlave]

One thing to keep in mind, more for the buyers in group buys then the sellers. When a group buy is done through a LFS, when the products/livestock arrive, the people who wanted the stuff should make a real and concerted effort to pick it up IMMEDIATELY! These LFS' don't have a lot of space, and it is not fair for them to incur the cost when people don't go through with their commitment. Just my opinion that no one asked for!

[Armando]

That's very true! I already called Mike to let him know I'm going to stop by on Saturday to pickup my filters. It looks like very few people picked up their orders.

[dedfish]

And here I thought you were doing all this work cause you were a nice guy. :) Didn't know there was a Group Buy Coordinator official position. At least I got in on one group buy from you. I hope it wasn't the one that sent you over the edge.

[starrfish]

Scott, I am interested, but I'd like to talk to you to understand exactly what is involved. Do you have to go to the LFS, or is it all handled on-line or via email? How much time is involved? How is the financing handled? Would my being on the Cape be an issue? I guess I'd really like to understand the process before I agree to it. And I'd like to understand the problems with the current process.

Thanks,
Daire

[Moe_K]

I'm not sure if there will be enough people interested in organizing group buys. I organized a few of them and especially after the last one I don't think I'll ever want to do this again. Not so much for the work, which is a lot indeed, but for the fact that after all the work people can stab you on your back. A simple "thank you" would have been nice. I already put it behind and moved on. Just mentioned as a heads up for the next organizers.
I agree a bit there, Armando.
I coordinated a couple of group buys, and it was just a huge hassle. I never had anyone stab me in the back, but I did have people pester the heck out of me.

[marco67]

My suggestion would be to make the sponsor awarded the buy responsible for managing the buy. The group buy coordinator should not need to concern him/herself with taking orders, payment or distribution. The group buy coordinator should (IMO) only need to act as a liaison between members and sponsors, comparing suggestions from members with offers from sponsors.

[Scuba_Dave]

I think that's a lot of work for a sponsor who's making less $$
I suggested once before that one of the people interested in the group buy organize it
It's a lot of work, better to let more people involved to lessen the load (I think we just learned a lesson on that?)
Another option would be to have the "position" rotate or shared by more then 1 person.
Anyone who has run a large (12+) group buy (or larger - 24 roses) knows the amount of work, the e-mails, posts, PM's & involvement it takes

[ScottM]

Scott, I am interested, but I'd like to talk to you to understand exactly what is involved. Do you have to go to the LFS, or is it all handled on-line or via email? How much time is involved? How is the financing handled? Would my being on the Cape be an issue? I guess I'd really like to understand the process before I agree to it. And I'd like to understand the problems with the current process.

Thanks,
Daire

If interested contact joe scavo.
once the BOD can post some definitive structure for group buys and update the coordinator with any changes, the position will be a piece of cake.

ideally (just my thoughts) the Coordinator should have a specific list of procedures to follow.
the financing and customer follow up should be handled by the bid winning LFS.
your location should't be an issue.
One sponsor (sea creatures) has limited online exposure. Phone contact may be required. as a favor to the owner, LittleP currently handles his online affairs.

as for the current problems:

too much conflict, complaining, and lack of communication among the BRS vendors about the BRS sponsorship plan and the BRS in general.
the immense difficulty in obtaining quotes, constant greed, infighing, and politics has driven me to this decision.

Most of it is how each LFS interprets the sponsorship plan.
too man grey area's. it needs to be black and white.
i would guess that each LFS has their own opinion of what an "official" buy really is.

I have had a significant amount of difficulty with getting pricing in a timely manner, orders taking too long to place (by the LFS), and constant bickering about outside vendors having the ability to undercut thier costs. not to mention the constant complaining of the LFS about people who don't pick up.

other than 2 old buys ( marco67's XM bulb buy and marvins Phosban buy) I have yet to see a group buy with an LFS that hasn't complained one way or another.

an undercutting example:
the LFS can get a Brand name RO Membrane for XXX.XX
an online retailer is offering a comprable off brand for 1/2 the cost or more over the LFS.

who do you think people are going to buy from?

[ScottM]

I think that's a lot of work for a sponsor who's making less $$.......

sponsors may take a hit with their profit margin on the group buy but the added foot traffic often leads to a direct increase in store sales. and they still make 15-30% on most buys, some have made MUCH more.
how many of us have gone to pick up 1 group buy item at an LFS and walked out with alot more? i would guess more than half of us.
Marketing costs can be expensive and are not a guarantee that you'll get foot traffic.
they say there are no guarantee's in life....
well a group buy guarantee's it.

[Moe_K]

IMO, this is the most important issue going forward.
everyone wants the best price.
all the vendors want to make money.
those are both perfectly understadable.

maybe we should have a round-table discussion or something.

[starrfish]

From the LIMITED discussions I've been involved with regarding this topic, I believe the lack of black and white "rules" (as Scott indicated) is probably a major contributor to the problems faced by the coordinator. Maybe one of the roles of the coordinator should be to work with the BOD to get these rules established and documented, then communicate them to the LFS. Then the job of the coordinator will be much easier going forward. Take this FWIW since I'm so new and haven't had any direct involvement. However, in my past life, I spent my career focused on process improvement. When you don't have a clearly defined process, all hell breaks loose! :eek:

[marco67]

"and they still make 15-30% on most buys"
Scott, lets be careful not to give the wrong impression here. Those numbers are way on the high side, margins may approach that but only when buying in quantity and only as a 'gross' margin. When running a true LFS or "brick and mortar" and factoring in other overheads these group buys are most often run as a loss leader. In which case the up side for the store is the foot traffic as you say and the good will toward the club both of which happen to be very important to me. Other store owners would argue with me on that decision and that's fine it's just a different belief/ management technique.

Moe and everybody
I hope your not seeing this as being a negative thread, I am absolutely not criticizing the club or the sponsorship program! I think the program in it's intent and as written is very close to being one that will benefit stores and the members and I am anxious to get the store open and have more time to work within that plan.

[marco67]

Daire,
I believe you have an acute understanding and I vote to give you permission to stop prefacing your posts with the "new kid on the block" lead ins :D

I would just add that the lack of "black and white" is probably due to the new program being released right in the middle of the planning of MACNA. In retrospect this was probably not a good idea because the focus of management was on the upcoming conference (and rightly so).

[Greg Hiller]

>Most of it is how each LFS interprets the sponsorship plan.
too man grey area's. it needs to be black and white.<

I agree, and we actually spent a lot of time trying to fix the plan. I'll say this though, every time we came up with a new fix we found some problem with it. It is amazingly difficult to come up with a plan that is black and white and that people and LFS's think is fair.

[Scuba_Dave]

True, when I go to pu my group buy item, I usually use it as an "excuse" to shop

[Ray]

Why not have all the LFS/sponsors put in a single bid for the item and lowest bid gets it? They all get one shot and no one knows what everyone else is putting in.

[TOOMANYFISH]

Thats a great idea Ray.Then we can get the best deal and still pick where to get it from.Just my .2 cents.

[scavdog]

Why not have all the LFS/sponsors put in a single bid for the item and lowest bid gets it? They all get one shot and no one knows what everyone else is putting in.

Neat idea. However the last thing we want is a bidding war between sponsors. Some vendors, because of volume/vendor relations (or lack there-of) would be hard-pressed to be able to compete.

Just my 2 cents.

keep suggestions coming.

Joe

[starrfish]

Marc - thanks for the vote of confidence :) I think it's very difficult to put a process like this in place and keep EVERYONE happy. Sure there are going to be times when the hobbyist can get stuff cheaper on-line, but if one of the stated goals is to get a fair price for the hobbyist AND support the LFS, then the rules have to support that goal. Some people may choose to buy on-line (and have to pay for shipping), and others may choose to support the LFS. The important thing is to agree to the rules and stick to them. Everyone won't be happy EVERY group buy - but that's ok. The most important thing is to have a clear process, that is well documented, that everyone understands.

Before this happens though, I think someone (the Group Coordinator?) should do an analysis of the current process - get feedback from everyone involved (participants, LFS, previous coordinator) - then outline a new process which should be reviewed and approved by the BOD. In that way, the new process can be designed based on the good and bad of the old. Documentation and communication of the new process to everyone involved will be key to its success.

[starrfish]

Ooops...one more thing...you're probably all thinking...wow, that is WAY too much work! It might seem like a lot of work up front, but the more you put into designing the rules up front, the less work it will be to administer them later on. And if we decide to rotate the coordinator as one person suggested, a well-defined and documented process makes this a very simple thing to do. Ok, I'm done. :D

[Armando]

, that is WAY too much work!
I agree with this part :D

[starrfish]

Yep, I figured. It's a little more work up front, but less in the long run because you don't have to constantly fight all the battles because everyone "misunderstood" the plan.

[Armando]

I suggest doing the other way around and letting the store owners coming up with whatever they want for a "special of the month" where they would take care of buying in bulk and passing the discount.

Inland Reef did this for a couple of months and it worked really well.

The challenge is to get the store owners to be pro-active and lead this. With a few exceptions they seem more interested in complaining and whining than getting business done.

Yeah I said it :p :D

[Moe_K]

Some store owners are waiting for the furor to die down, and to see what comes out of the mess.

[littlep93056]

Just waiting

[Tstone]

The most important thing is to have a clear process, that is well documented, that everyone understands.
Daire said it all right here.

Marc really has the right idea or mind set for and LFS to have. Good will and foot traffic into the store are what its about.

Its possible to make money on certain items but sometimes you loose money. Never does a store make 15% to 30% on a group buy. An LFS is lucky to make those margines on full price items.

[starrfish]

Armando's idea sounds like a good one. Why don't we rotate the LFS every month - "LFS" of the month club". Let them decide what to offer at what price. Then the BRS members can choose whether to buy or not. Then the role of the coordinator becomes one of communication only - informing BRS members what the special of the month is, and which LFS is offering it. This might help the LFS get rid of overstocks (is there such a thing in the LFS business?), or they might be able to work with their suppliers to get great deals to pass along to us.

[~Flighty~]

I know this is a little offtopic, but after just running a group buy (about 20 sucesses and about four dismal falures) I think a few things need to be put down as rules to really help a coordinater like me. If rules aren't a good solution, take this as advice for future organisers.

-Guidelines about pickup
This was the biggest issue for me and sounds like an issue for the stores too. It is made dificult by unsure delivery dates, but I think it would be fair to say that with livestock, you must pickup same day, make prior arangements, or forfit the animal, and with drygoods you must pickup within a week or within the time determined by the person holding the goods. I was warned several times, but just didn't believe that people wouldn't pick up an anemone that they paid for already, or at least call and make arangements.

-Guidelines about communication would very helpful, especially some sort of form system so that the coordinator would have info from everyone involved in the same place. ie Online name, real name, email, phone, town and state, payment method, agree to conditions. Tracking down this info was the hardest and most time consuming thing for me. It would have been smart to say, "you're not on the list untill you email this form back to me."

Even though there were some big problems, I think I would organise another group buy someday. Just not soon :).

[JustDavidP]

When I picked up my RO/DI supplies from Mike, I left with a LOT more than cartridges. I too look at it as an opportunity to "shop". The group buy is just the "foot in".

I'd rather drive to NH to pick up and browse at a not so local FS than to work out of a parking lot. I'm weird like that ;) I also believe (and preach) about supporting the LFS.

Hi... I'm Dave..and I'm an impulse buyer. The LFS Proprietors love me!!

[starrfish]

Cindy - that wasn't off topic at all! I think your list is a great start to getting some ground rules in place.

[marco67]

you girls have the makings of a committee. keep up the good work ;)

[ScottM]

Never does a store make 15% to 30% on a group buy. An LFS is lucky to make those margines on full price items.

I completely disagree with this.
I know for a fact that the last 3 group buys had a gross margin of 15%-25%.
and one prior to that the supplier had it on special durring the buy and the LFS made almost 75% gross margin...

how each LFS Caculates its overhead and operating costs will vary but to say that a LFS Will never make those margins on a buy is not true. I think if the LFS put just a little effort in pursuing alternatives from their current wholesale distributors they will find a deal to be had. my experience has been most of the LFS just don't want to take the time to do it. When approched they remark " its just not worth it." most group buys that i have priced out thru the LFS has been nothing more than them picking up a catalog and saying, "this is the best i can do".

I think the BRS is an exceptional group of people that will go above and beyond to support an LFS.
The LEAST we as a group could hope for is an LFS that would go above and beyond for us.

[Tstone]

Scott if that were the case the LFS would be stampeding to offer group buys.

Yes they can be profitable as they should be but the margins are not quite that good.

I have done a bunch of group buys over the last 2 years. I have done group buys with the BRS, Fish & Reef Aquarium Group (FRAG) in Arizona, Central Oklahoma Marine Aquarium Society, Colorado Rocky Mountain Reef Club, Connecticut Area Reef Society (C.A.R.S.), Desert Marine Society, Iowa Reef Club, New Jersey Reefer's Club and Orlando Reef Caretakers Association (ORCA) along with a few individually organised GB around the country.

They were all time consuming and never did they make those kinds of margines. My overhead was minimul as I was an online dealer with very little walk-in type business.

I do agree with you that the LFS should go above and beyond. They will see a better bottom line with that kind of attitude.

[JustDavidP]

you girls have the makings of a committee. keep up the good work ;)

I agree... Cindy, Paula, the rest of the "Reefer-ettes" will be the future of BRS. You mark my words. Hell... My home would be chaos if my boss...er.. wife wasn't around. Remember...behind every great organization...um....man... is a better woman ;)

Dave

[~Flighty~]

I would like to help with this, but I can't commit to spending lots of time any time soon. I'll have three kids under the age of four by the end of December. The last few months of pregnancy with two little kids isn't always a cake walk either. Can you wait till they all get to elementery school? I think I might have some free time then. :)

Is there an easy way for me to look at the software that runs the site? (I have an IT and engineering background) Through the group buy there were several things that would have made the buy go much smoother and I wonder if any of the unused capabilities of the package might help. For example, group PMs, Linked threads(one for announcements, one for talking about it) Larger PM inboxes. At the end of my group buy the thread had 210 posts and 2,826 views. Thats more views and posts than "Ashamed to be associated with BRS" and "BRS = Censorship? " combined ;)

[Armando]

Never does a store make 15% to 30% on a group buy.
That's lame. (sorry Marvin :D)

The return you get with free advertising by putting your store name out in a group buy thread, plus getting people to visit your store is well beyond what you get in the group buy itself.

Just as an example, I picked up my group by this weekend at the store and brought another reefer with me. We together spent more than twice of I paid in the group buy item. And if the store had been stocked with livestock I would have spent even more.

[reefsmurf]

I was at the same store this weekend as well on Sunday and wasn't even on the group buy and bought the group buy items (heh heh.. sorry guys ), and also spent extra as well..

In fact I would say that people being tardy with their group buy items actually helps the stores in some cases.. because they get a stream of traffic over several weeks and so can restock each week on other items (esp LS)

GROUP BUYS: a custom interface and back end software to help organize would probably help a coordinator tremendously..

[Tstone]

That's lame. (sorry Marvin :D)

The return you get with free advertising by putting your store name out in a group buy thread, plus getting people to visit your store is well beyond what you get in the group buy itself.

Just as an example, I picked up my group by this weekend at the store and brought another reefer with me. We together spent more than twice of I paid in the group buy item. And if the store had been stocked with livestock I would have spent even more.
Thats exactly why you do a group buy. not for the profit of the GB itself but for the business it creates.

Oh yeah I am not LAME!!:mad: well OK sometimes ;)

[starrfish]

I have the time and the passion to devote to this. Cindy, Scott, Marvin, Marc, Moe, Joe, etc....if you think it's worthwhile, I would love to take this on. But I will need all of your input to make it happen. Maybe we can discuss on 10/2?

Daire

[Armando]

Daire I suggest a bulb group buy :D

[~Flighty~]

I have the time and the passion to devote to this. Cindy, Scott, Marvin, Marc, Moe, Joe, etc....if you think it's worthwhile, I would love to take this on. But I will need all of your input to make it happen. Maybe we can discuss on 10/2?

DaireOk, Maybe I can be the Northern New England Group Buy Liason Sub-Coordinator

[starrfish]

LOL - you're hired!