"Old Tank syndrome" and sandbed collapse

[TomD]

I would like to here the opinions of some of you more experienced reefers on old tank syndrome.

Has anybody here experienced this? From what I have read, it seems a major factor is accumulation of detritus in the sand bed and LR that eventually build up to toxic levels. I am sure it gets much more complicated than this...

I know some people here have had their tanks going 8+ years. Have any of you changed out a portion of your sand bed? Is this only a concern with DSB or can this also occur with a shallow bed?

I have also read about natural disturbances on the reefs and that some people think it is good to carefully disturb their tank after a while.

If a tank is properly maintained and has good nutrient export, is there no reason to think about this, or does it happen to well maintained tanks as well?

[pvh]

Good questions...I'm curious as well.

[RayD]

How about this thought. I added a Tiger Tail Cucumber to the reef. I've read great things about this animal and it's the opinion of several expert reerfers that these are one of the best animals to have in your reef.

They live in the sandbed and spend all their time cleaning, cleaning, and cleaning.

A friend that was breaking down his reef gave me his. I rarely see mine but ocassionally at night.

Aquarium Gallery carried them regularly and I'm thinking they might contribute to the prevention of "old tank syndrome" to some degree anyway.

[naturebatslast]

Talking with Terry Siegal about this and a consensus was that it does happen to well established tanks and could possibly be allievated with a massive water change (greater than 50%).

[TomD]

Talking with Terry Siegal about this and a consensus was that it does happen to well established tanks and could possibly be allievated with a massive water change (greater than 50%).


When you see symptoms or just after so long?

[Yaktop]

old age debate and in RC debated often and just isnt a consensus except most believe the DSB is the best method. other have done the RSB (remote sand bed) who can simply change out all the sand every few years but that is very uncommon in comparison.

[jimmyj7090]

FWIW, there is a great discussion of this topic in "The Reef Aquarium vol 3". (yes, I've been plugging that book constantly, I just like it a lot)

[TomD]

old age debate and in RC debated often and just isnt a consensus except most believe the DSB is the best method. other have done the RSB (remote sand bed) who can simply change out all the sand every few years but that is very uncommon in comparison.

I know the debate but I want to know if you can also have this happen if you are running a less than DSB.

Or does this only "usually" happen to an improperly maintaned DSB?

Or is it more than just the sandbed...

[jimmyj7090]

FWIW, the book ref I mentioned above has seperate sections on different sandbed methodologies (some of which have completly different approaches to things like stiring vs not stirring sand) and "old tank syndrome". A lot of good related reading IMO.

I haven't been following the RC debates exct, but IIRC the idea/term "old tank syndrome" has been around since long before the great DSB debate even started.

Again, IIRC, old tank syndrome is a sort of generic term for tanks that do well then go into a decline for unknown reasons after a number of years. There is speculation about numerous possible causes, DSB related problems being very reasonable possibilities among other things.

I'm guessing that old tank syndrome idea/term got linked to the DSB debates because of the obvious hypothisis that they are interrelated.

The thing I question is if this might confuse things/terms because "old tank syndrome" may be a term that's more like "RTN" where it's really referring to a symptom of one or more, not fully understood problem(s)/factor(s). The same might even be said of the DSB crashing debate.

There may be 5 ways a tank can go into old tank syndrome, and a few ways a sandbed could crash, but it might be oversimpified by assuming that,
for ex;

-A tank that's been healthy for a few yrs clearly begins to decline for no known reason > must be old tank syndrome > must be a sand bed problem.-

Not trying to dismiss what anyone is saying or asking in any way, just suggesting that at least in my understanding, this is a very complex set of issues/questions and the symptoms and specific causes may vary and or overlap.

Great topic,

[TomD]

Great response John! That is why I asked about all of this. I don't think it is as simple as keeping a clean sandbed.

[jimmyj7090]

As I've taken it in, it's a fascinating intersection of different factors.

Also, I skimmed through a magizine at B+N bookstore the other day and there were 2 or 3 pretty interesting articles relating to sandbed methods. I don't remember which mag it was, but there are only about 2 aquarist magizines to choose from.

[naturebatslast]

When you see symptoms or just after so long?

It was suggested that yearly 50% WC's should occur in an attempt to prevent OTS. In addition, he also skimmer very aggressively with 2 huge skimmers and ran a big carbon/phosban reactor.

[TomD]

Really? You know what, it seems like a good idea to me. As long as you match parameters I can't see any harm?

Is anybody doing this or anything similar?

[JeremyR]

Maybe instead of doing yearly water changes, if people just did their regular normal water changes instead of doing everything possible to avoid water changes, it wouldn't even ever come up... ;)

Btw, the best thing about TRAIII is the page with my name on it. Hehehe. :P

[TomD]

Maybe instead of doing yearly water changes, if people just did their regular normal water changes instead of doing everything possible to avoid water changes, it wouldn't even ever come up... ;)

That is back to my original question (one of them) Will a properly maintaned tank have a chance of getting "old tank syndrome?"

Matt says he has heard yes.

Jeremy, in all the years you have been doing this, have you ever experienced these kinds of problems?

[JeremyR]

Not really.. but we have always been frequent water changers, especially if anything looks "off". We've had bare bottom, DSB, middle-deepSB, shallowSB, and I can't say that any of them ran any differently or had results better than another. That doesn't mean there has never been a problem.. we've certainly had various algaes in various tanks, but never something I would call OTS or that would cause me to want to rip a tank down & start over.

[TomD]

Good enough. My feeling on this is that if I have a good cleaning crew, good flow, good nutrient export, don't overfeed..on and on, that this can never happen.

What Tery Siegal said is interesting. How/why does this happen to a tank that is properly maintaned?

How do you even determine that your tank is going through something like this? A rise in nitrates/amonia so that your tank does not break down nutrients anymore?

[Aquaman_68]

Not really.. but we have always been frequent water changers, especially if anything looks "off". We've had bare bottom, DSB, middle-deepSB, shallowSB, and I can't say that any of them ran any differently or had results better than another. That doesn't mean there has never been a problem.. we've certainly had various algaes in various tanks, but never something I would call OTS or that would cause me to want to rip a tank down & start over.

I want to rip mine down & start over monthly...I think the subject at hand exists in my opinion Tom....I don't think large water changes help. All they do is help to extract high levels of organics that have leached out of the rock. That method of 50% or greater.....Maybe every other day for a couple weeks that might work.....Problem there is...It will stress the bio area out very much......Jeremy...your reef tanks don't have much in the live rock area...The live rock also acts like a sponge...problem is it can leach out as it can suck up & over time can be totally saturated...JMO & I'm sure I will be debated....But I couldn't resist!!!;)

[KAS2]

Maybe instead of doing yearly water changes, if people just did their regular normal water changes instead of doing everything possible to avoid water changes, it wouldn't even ever come up... ;)


I agree with Jeremy. There's a common misconception that major water changes are more efficient than multiple minor ones. Besides the fact that a major change jolts the ecosystem, the math shows that multiple small changes also do the trick.

If you change X of the water (X from 0 to 1), you have to do it 1/X times to replace the entire volume of water. So, 50% would be done twice, 20% five times, 10% ten times, etc. If you look instead at the "old" water remaining after each change, two 50% changes leaves 1/2 squared, five 20% changes leaves 4/5 to the fifth power, ten 10% changes leaves 9/10 to the tenth power.

Now try this with Excel:

<column2>=1-(<column1>/100)
<column3>=POWER(<column2>,1/(1-<column2>))

column1 = % water change
column2 = fraction of old water left after 1 change
column3 = fraction of old water left after 100% volume change

50 0.5 0.250000 <-- 2 50% changes
40 0.6 0.278855
30 0.7 0.304551
20 0.8 0.327680 <-- 5 20% changes
10 0.9 0.348678
5 0.95 0.358486
1 0.99 0.366032
0.1 0.999 0.367695
0.01 0.9999 0.367861
0.001 0.99999 0.367878 <-- 100000 "drop-for-drop" changes

BTW, this converges to 1/e = 1/2.718281828 = 0.367879
Ain't math wonderful?

So, even having a zillion nano changes leaves you with only 50% more of the original water than two 50% changes. All in all, I think this shows that frequent small changes are the way to go.

Whether this will fix Old Tank Syndrome is still an open question. :rolleyes:

[TomD]

I want to rip mine down & start over monthly...I think the subject at hand exists in my opinion Tom....I don't think large water changes help. All they do is help to extract high levels of organics that have leached out of the rock. That method of 50% or greater.....Maybe every other day for a couple weeks that might work.....Problem there is...It will stress the bio area out very much......Jeremy...your reef tanks don't have much in the live rock area...The live rock also acts like a sponge...problem is it can leach out as it can suck up & over time can be totally saturated...JMO & I'm sure I will be debated....But I couldn't resist!!!;)

Good point with the LR. I do think that having too much to the point of low flow through will speed this problem up. I keep a real open rock structure for that reason.

Brian, how do you experience this with your tank when you say it does exist?

[Greg Hiller]

I had one unexplained episode with my 110 gallon system years ago. It had been doing well for many years, then there was a patch of time when things did not grow well, and some new things when introduced did not do well. I never figured out exactly what the problem was, but it kind of went away without me doing all that much.

I think that it (obviously) is pretty important to keep up with things and never let maintenance of a tank go too long. I think there is no question that sand beds can accumulate a lot of muck, but I don't buy the idea that they fill to some level then all at once your tank crashes. I maintain that a lot of supposed 'tank crashes' are due to clearly definable problems that have in many cases simple solutions. I think one of the biggest problems is loss of circulation at night killing a lot of fish.

I also don't buy the idea that changing out a portion of your sand bed is somehow something you should never do (Ron Shimek).

[TomD]

I had one unexplained episode with my 110 gallon system years ago. It had been doing well for many years, then there was a patch of time when things did not grow well, and some new things when introduced did not do well. I never figured out exactly what the problem was, but it kind of went away without me doing all that much.

I think that it (obviously) is pretty important to keep up with things and never let maintenance of a tank go too long. I think there is no question that sand beds can accumulate a lot of muck, but I don't buy the idea that they fill to some level then all at once your tank crashes. I maintain that a lot of supposed 'tank crashes' are due to clearly definable problems that have in many cases simple solutions. I think one of the biggest problems is loss of circulation at night killing a lot of fish.

I also don't buy the idea that changing out a portion of your sand bed is somehow something you should never do (Ron Shimek).


I agree, at least imo, that a lot of these instances (not all) are due to a problem that the tank owner may not be aware of.

Greg, have you ever, or do you now change out portions of your sandbed after so long?

[Greg Hiller]

I've not changed out any of the sand in my 400 G, but it's only been up for about 1 1/2 years. I did sometimes remove and replace a bit of the sand in my old 110.

[TomD]

Were you nervous doing that? I don't know how combfortable I feel disturbing my sand bed. Obviously you must have done a small amount at a time right?

[Aquaman_68]

Good point with the LR. I do think that having too much to the point of low flow through will speed this problem up. I keep a real open rock structure for that reason.

Brian, how do you experience this with your tank when you say it does exist?

I think I'm having an old tank issue in my system....Been going on for about 9 months....This 155 bow has been been active for over 4 years & half of the sand in it is close to 8 years old. I do water changes weekly & it doesn't seem to be correcting itself. I'm maintaining but every little shift in any parameter I have to deal with issues...Nothing major....Overall my tank looks good to me but I'm never happy!! Most people who come to see it who I don't really know & they are very impressed. sometimes they tell me & sometimes they don't & I hear it from another reefer that they were commenting on my system & livestock color of corals etc...(in a positive way)

Now Ed comes over from time to time & also hears me complain weekly...Everytime he comes he says "tank looks awesome...what are you talking about?"

Overall my tank is pretty clean except for the growth that grows on the glass every 4 days or so. (may be some diatoms..as it looks) some areas of the sand that are dirty but that is in low flow areas...But lately the sand is getting a mucky appearence in some areas.......I've been planning to remove some sand but from cleaning over the 4 years I've already removed a good portion.....So I'm going to get some livesand in next week...See if that gives this sandbed a little more life!! (which I think degrades over time due to toxic issues beyond our control)

HTH & has answered your question, Tom...
B

[TomD]

Thanks Brian, did answer my question. Hope the sand issue works out for you.

As a side question out of interest, is this also why you are interested in testing for organics? Try to keep a check on what your tank is breaking down etc?

[Aquaman_68]

Thanks Brian, did answer my question. Hope the sand issue works out for you.

As a side question out of interest, is this also why you are interested in testing for organics? Try to keep a check on what your tank is breaking down etc?

YEP ;)

[Yaktop]

Now Ed comes over from time to time & also hears me complain weekly...Everytime he comes he says "tank looks awesome...what are you talking about?"
B

how about daily :rolleyes:

[Aquaman_68]

bite me......Hey BTW...what are you? cattle?:p

[Calciumbuf]

I know this is a little off topic but I have always been suspect to the pollen in the air at this time of year, I have also read several articals on the great barrier reefs were mass bleaching events have been tied to dust in the air from a forestry project going on some 4000 miles away given favorable wind direction. I live in an area were there are several oaks, maple's and ash all around me and have always experienced unexplainable algea at this time of year.

[TomD]

I know this is a little off topic but I have always been suspect to the pollen in the air at this time of year, I have also read several articals on the great barrier reefs were mass bleaching events have been tied to dust in the air from a forestry project going on some 4000 miles away given favorable wind direction. I live in an area were there are several oaks, maple's and ash all around me and have always experienced unexplainable algea at this time of year.


Interesting either way.

[Aquaman_68]

I know this is a little off topic but I have always been suspect to the pollen in the air at this time of year, I have also read several articals on the great barrier reefs were mass bleaching events have been tied to dust in the air from a forestry project going on some 4000 miles away given favorable wind direction. I live in an area were there are several oaks, maple's and ash all around me and have always experienced unexplainable algea at this time of year.
I've read that before as well Jim.....The way to know if there is a relation is if it happens around the same time or close to it!! I know I deal with issues from my water supply at certain times of the year due to the crap they put in to keep down algae & bacteria. You wouldn't have to worry about that with your well & all!! But than again......you have other things that you may have to deal with that us city water users wouldn't really know about. Like heavy metals & the quick exaustion of your filters due to it. I still would like to see the difference sometime long term...(by using well water)But that is going to be impossible...I've always been suspect of the water supply I use since they went to chloramines....I've been dealing with unexplained issues here & there since & have also struggled with keeping my orp level over 400mv. (405 is a nice target I would like to keep but I only hover around 380mv or so.....)

[Greg Hiller]

Interesting about the pollen. Actually I end up with a lot of small flies in my sump this time of year. The lights attract them in the basement and they end up 'a floatin'. It's funny, the other day in my frag tank I saw a LPS sucking a fly in!

Another I realize slightly off topic regarding stuff coming in...it's fairly well documented now that the disease that sometimes affects seafans in the Atlantic is due to mold spore that blow in with dust from Africa.

Regarding being nervous about changing the sand. I think siphoning out is pretty easy to do, and I don't think there is much risk to this as long as you don't stir a lot of stuff up. You DON'T want to scoop it up. Adding new sand can be tricky. I usually make sure it is really well rinsed (a pain in the bum for the old Southdown), then I attempt to pack it into a cup. I stop the water flow and then gently take the cup to the bottom of the tank and flip it quickly, then slowly let it out. I don't add too much at once, and am careful about not ending up with a lot of suspended dust.

[Aquaman_68]

Interesting about the pollen. Actually I end up with a lot of small flies in my sump this time of year. The lights attract them in the basement and they end up 'a floatin'. It's funny, the other day in my frag tank I saw a LPS sucking a fly in!

Another I realize slightly off topic regarding stuff coming in...it's fairly well documented now that the disease that sometimes affects seafans in the Atlantic is due to mold spore that blow in with dust from Africa.

Regarding being nervous about changing the sand. I think siphoning out is pretty easy to do, and I don't think there is much risk to this as long as you don't stir a lot of stuff up. You DON'T want to scoop it up. Adding new sand can be tricky. I usually make sure it is really well rinsed (a pain in the bum for the old Southdown), then I attempt to pack it into a cup. I stop the water flow and then gently take the cup to the bottom of the tank and flip it quickly, then slowly let it out. I don't add too much at once, and am careful about not ending up with a lot of suspended dust.
Good trick to adding sand as well!! (well..live sand...) Get a 4 inch or 3 inch PVC cut it long enough to stick out of the water of the tank & be tight into the existing sandbed. Use a measuring cup to scoop it (make sure it is wet & strained of the water first) & pour it in the tube. Wait about 15mins to a half an hour for the sand to settle & carefully raise the tube a little at a time & release a portion of the new sand from the tube..Takes a little time & patience but it can make for a very clean transition into the new sandbed. you create!!! I'm getting mine ready!!! It's been over 4 years since I've done this. I'm way overdue!!

[Calciumbuf]

It may be that air quality is just as important as water quality.

[TomD]

Good trick to adding sand as well!! (well..live sand...) Get a 4 inch or 3 inch PVC cut it long enough to stick out of the water of the tank & be tight into the existing sandbed. Use a measuring cup to scoop it (make sure it is wet & strained of the water first) & pour it in the tube. Wait about 15mins to a half an hour for the sand to settle & carefully raise the tube a little at a time & release a portion of the new sand from the tube..Takes a little time & patience but it can make for a very clean transition into the new sandbed. you create!!! I'm getting mine ready!!! It's been over 4 years since I've done this. I'm way overdue!!

Question for both Brian and Greg: After how long would you recommend doing this? Is it hard to say, just have to get a feel for it, or say every 4-5 years change out % of sand-bed.

Brian, why just live sand? If we are only doing a small portion, we would not kill enough beneficial bacteria so wouldn't it be ok to add dry sand?

[Greg Hiller]

>Question for both Brian and Greg: After how long would you recommend doing this? Is it hard to say, just have to get a feel for it, or say every 4-5 years change out % of sand-bed.<

I think it depends on the tank. If you are getting growth of cyano on the sand a lot, and it looks really discolored on the glass it might be time. Also, if you siphon a bit out and it looks like a real mess, then it probably is time. I suppose as a ball park guess I'd say remove 10-20% every year starting after 3-5 years in operation. If you have a sand sifting goby you might not need to change any.

Nice trick on the sand Brian.

[smcnally]

Brian, are you sure you're experiencing Old Tank Syndrome and not OCD?:p

[Aquaman_68]

Brian, are you sure you're experiencing Old Tank Syndrome and not OCD?:p
Both!!!..funny you say it!!!I've heard that often

Question for both Brian and Greg: After how long would you recommend doing this? Is it hard to say, just have to get a feel for it, or say every 4-5 years change out % of sand-bed.

Brian, why just live sand? If we are only doing a small portion, we would not kill enough beneficial bacteria so wouldn't it be ok to add dry sand?

Greg nailed the first question perfect with one exception on time frame....If you've done a beginner goof like most of us have in the early past (& sometimes some still do because of negligence or procrastinating on maintenance!!!) ie:
1) add too much two part suppliment because you seen that it has dropped very low due to not keeping up on checking params
2) add two much mag suppliment/ epsom salt/ to boost it up quick
3) nuked your tank with ozone because your orp probe was off & you pretty much sterilized your tanks sandbed & the system in general.
4)Or even cranked up the calcium reactor too much to bring up a low alk you didn't know was slowly dropping due to intake.

All these things precipitate into the sandbed & can cause you to pretty much kill off the live goodies in the sand due to toxic levels becoming too high.
as far as live sand.....Very benificial..loaded with tons of pods critters & beneficial bacteria strains that you may have killed off in an ill attemp to bring low params up quick!!!



Nice trick on the sand Brian.
Thanks!;)

[Dragon2115]

I just started in sw around eight months ago so I don't know all the ins and outs yet but I've been doing fw for over 20 years and those tanks can supposedly get "OTS" as well. I have never run into it in one of my tanks though. Maybe it's due to the way I clean the tank. Every now and then I do a cleaning of the sand bed. I use one of the clear plastic siphons you see in all the stores. What I do is put the siphon in the sand and suck up a column of it. Then before it can be pulled into the hose I stop the flow and let the column of sand collapse back down. I then restart the flow and pull all the nasty water and stuff that's been liberated from the sand out of the tank. This probably accomplishes the same thing as stirring but without allowing what you stirred up to circulate throughout the tank. Does this take out some of the bacteria in the sand bed, sure, but it doesn't wipe it out. That would be impossible. I also don't clean everywhere, just the sandy areas that are out in the open. So far this has worked for my fw tanks. Time will tell if it works with my sw tanks too.

[ReeferMedic]

I just started in sw around eight months ago so I don't know all the ins and outs yet but I've been doing fw for over 20 years and those tanks can supposedly get "OTS" as well. I have never run into it in one of my tanks though. Maybe it's due to the way I clean the tank. Every now and then I do a cleaning of the sand bed. I use one of the clear plastic siphons you see in all the stores. What I do is put the siphon in the sand and suck up a column of it. Then before it can be pulled into the hose I stop the flow and let the column of sand collapse back down. I then restart the flow and pull all the nasty water and stuff that's been liberated from the sand out of the tank. This probably accomplishes the same thing as stirring but without allowing what you stirred up to circulate throughout the tank. Does this take out some of the bacteria in the sand bed, sure, but it doesn't wipe it out. That would be impossible. I also don't clean everywhere, just the sandy areas that are out in the open. So far this has worked for my fw tanks. Time will tell if it works with my sw tanks too.

You won't be able to do this with the fine sand that is in most of our tanks without losing most of it down the drain. It works much better with the gravel that is used in most fresh water tanks.

[Greg Hiller]

And also, in some cases out sand slowly dissolves, so the particles become smaller and smaller over time. This is particularly true in the lower pH zones below the surface of the sand bed.

[reefinghabit]

the tank at sea world had been set up for at least 8 yrs. i took it over about 1 yr ago. i did have some issues with corals not being 100% at there fullest potential.i sucked out as much of the old sand and waste that i could,then replaced it ,with 180 lbs of bahamas oolite. frequent water changes i think are good. 10% each week. at home i run a special grade reef sand 3-4" deep. i have seen undisturbed areas build up hydrogen sulfate gas.i beleive its a good thing to stir the sand, no matter how deep it is. every week. this helps release trapped detritus waste, also built up nitrogen gas,and keeps hydrogen sulfate gas from forming. also it keeps the levels of bacteria nitryfying and denytrifying continually transforming, waste into nitrate no3. at least thats my thoughts. my theory is proper sand bed maintenance and frequent water changes is a good recipe for success,in this hobby.

[Sean Irwin]

100% agree...As others have suggested, old tank syndrome is due (in part) to loss of biodiversity. Loss comes from depletion or failure of certain animals to reappear overtime, depletion of certain bioactive substances, and the selection of mono-cultures of microorganisms (like in old, unagitated sand beds).

[Dragon2115]

You won't be able to do this with the fine sand that is in most of our tanks without losing most of it down the drain. It works much better with the gravel that is used in most fresh water tanks.

I hear what you're saying Don but believe it or not I'm already doing it with the Fiji Pink. Come on over some time and I'll show you. Plus I do it to my FW tank as well which has that pita two-part substrate for plants in it. One part is the normal gravel but the other is that fine black stuff which is even worse than the Fiji Pink sand. Do I lose a little, sure, but the amount is so small it's insignificant. We'd be talking years before there'd be a noticable drop in the sand level. Is it a major league pita? Oh yeah. But that's why I don't do it that often.

Picture allowing the siphon to dig into the sand pulling a column of sand up the tube and then stopping the water flow before the sand reaches the hose of the siphon. Now wait until the sand settles back to the bottom and then restart the flow to carry away all the crud that just got stirred up and is trapped in the siphon tube. This is going to accomplish the same thing as stirring but without allowing all the nasties that reefinghabit talked about to circulate throughout the aquarium.

I think you and Greg differ on opinion from me because you guys are looking at it from the perspective of maintaining really large systems whereas I'm looking at it from the pov of maintaining much smaller ones. For you guys it just may not be as practical as it is for me. Plus, how much of the sandbed is accessible for cleaning is going to be a determining factor. In my tanks I can get at most of the sandbed (since my freakin dragon goby is determined to excavate every last grain of sand from under the rocks and place it against the front glass) whereas Don otoh can only get at a small fraction of his. I imagine Greg's tanks are probably the same way. So yeah, for you guys what I'm talking about wouldn't work. You guys are just in a whole different league than I am.

[Aquaman_68]

I think it can be done with a gravel cleaner. You have to have experience. I don't see a problem...Comon guys!! You know when you siphon the top layer because of of unwanted algae...You end up with sand in the bucket in the end!! I 'm sure with this w method & practice you will have less in the bucket in the end if you compare apples to apples