Why? SPS acclimation

[Jacksparrow]

Aloha all, I don't get this one. Got a great birdsnest and thought I did the right acclimation period but I don't know. After dipping in Iodine and keeping in my QT for a 2.5weeks or more I dropped this awesome beauty into my tank, right to the bottom. During the acclimation period there was no change in the coral. All its polyps where out and doing great. I have a 400w 12k and water parameters are right on, Ca 450 Mg 1400, Ph 8.2 Ni/Na/Phos/Amonia/ all zero,temp 79, I don't have a Ca reactor yet but will get on very soon,RODI only,trace elments added. I am new to sps and was wondering if anyone can tell me there acclimation procedure so I could compare.

Mahalo Eric

[SteveDola]

is the QT tank water the same as the display tanks? how long did you acclimate the coral?

usually I take the coral and put it in a tupperware container with existing water. Float the container and let it come to temp. Then every 10-15 minutes add a cup of tank water to the container. After a few cups Ill take a cup out first and then add a cup to the container. After bout 1hr 1/2 the piece is ready to be placed depending on the previous lighting and new lighting. With SPS I like to go slow when acclimating ( slower the better esp. when dealing with problematic difficult corals)...zoas and other softies Ill basically toss in.

[Scott]

If you don't mind, I'd like to jump in with a related question.

Once this starts, is it reversible? Can it recover?
Or is it a slippery slope that only has one outcome?

I've got an orange cap that's losing tissue. Probably due to poor acclimation. It was encrusted on a big rock that I couldn't acclimate well.

[coolwater]

what kind of lighting was it under in the qt tank it could be a big jump to 400wt or looks like it may have been blasted by a power head

[Aquadiva]

Alk??

or am I not seeing that number..

[Yaktop]

IMO, for sps. why stress the coral again. stressed during treatment (hopefully you treat for bugs) and then again from the qt to the tank? unnecessary IMO.

[Behrmon]

IMO, for sps. why stress the coral again. stressed during treatment (hopefully you treat for bugs) and then again from the qt to the tank? unnecessary IMO.

Ditto.

[chew*]

6 hour dip period is stress enough, I test the tank water it came from for alk, if it's close to mine in it goes.....if its not then i will aclimate it a bit. ALK is far more important than the rest when it comes to sps, I keep mine at 7.7-7.9......

[SteveDola]

more a salinity/alk adjustment when I acclimate.

yeh dont see a reason to QT a sps when you dose interceptor. check for AEFWs and dip for Redbugs...by then, no need to QT.

[cobraz]

Birds nest also can be very touchy, leave the frag in the tank mid light and see if it comes back.
They are know to re-polyp over the dead structure. Mine have done this twice.

[SteveDola]

I dont find many people that run their alk at 8 mostly 10-11 and that means acclimation and I think its important to slowly adjust the water so it doesnt start to rtn.

[RayD]

I dont find many people that run their alk at 8 mostly 10-11 and that means acclimation and I think its important to slowly adjust the water so it doesnt start to rtn.

I have to agree with Steve. Most run around 11. Some LFS's will even suggest running at 12. If you run a CA reactor you could see levels at 12 easily.

Mine runs between 10-11 (Elos) or 12-13 (Salifert).

As Jerry said, Birdsnest can be touchy. I never had any luck with Birdsnest until recently when I placed it in high light/high flow.

[chew*]

more a salinity/alk adjustment when I acclimate.

yea dont see a reason to QT a sps when you dose interceptor. check for AEFWs and dip for Redbugs...by then, no need to QT.

steve interceptor has an 80% kill rate.....however providing you buy frags in fellow members tanks and you know what your looking for they are easy to spot......Only way to not get them is dip them then place in a QT tank and inspect them thouroughly before adding to display, I got them by just dipping and no QT, but thats another topic.....

[chew*]

I dont find many people that run their alk at 8 mostly 10-11 and that means acclimation and I think its important to slowly adjust the water so it doesnt start to rtn.

aquaman 68, casino, cobra1858, I believe calcium buff, me, thats 5 just off the top of my head that run low alk sps tanks.......I know 3 of those 5 run calcium reactors............................

Not sure why those guys are running low but i'm running low so i don't "burn" them..........Usually starts from the tips down, not the base up........easily confused with rtn however......just like that coral in the above pic is doing.....note the base still has flesh......

[MikeG]

steve interceptor has an 80% kill rate.....however providing you buy frags in fellow members tanks and you know what your looking for they are easy to spot......Only way to not get them is dip them then place in a QT tank and inspect them thouroughly before adding to display, I got them by just dipping and no QT, but thats another topic.....Hey Brian, you keep referencing an 80% kill rate for intercepter, is this documented anywhere? I have never had less than a 100% kill rate from what I have seen treating infected corals.

[chew*]

Hey Brian, you keep referencing an 80% kill rate for intercepter, is this documented anywhere? I have never had less than a 100% kill rate from what I have seen treating infected corals.

Yes it is......I can pull it up if you want.......Its in the original cure finding thread, which is the reason why its required to do 3 treatments for a 100% erradication......

[MikeG]

Yes it is......I can pull it up if you want.......Its in the original cure finding thread, which is the reason why its required to do 3 treatments for a 100% erradication......The origional cure finding thread based 3 treatments on the assumption that there were eggs I thought? I don't remember seeing anything reguarding a mortality rate. I will have to reread it and see.

[chew*]

nah because they are live bearers.....I'm trying to find the thread now, I also found another study done that confirmed that its wasn't a 100% kill rate. I researched it alot once they got through the dips........That study was done to see if anything else worked against them.......It ranged from iodine, betadine, levamisol, heartguard, peroxide, interceptor......They survived everything but interceptor and some managed to make it through that....

[MikeG]

the fact that they were live bearers didn't come out for some time after the original treatment protocol was in place about 5 years ago.

[Jacksparrow]

Aloha, Sorry for the missed info guys, Alk is 10 and salinity is 1.025. The lightening on the qt is 2 150w 10k, It was only in the qt for 2 weeks at the most and the water is the same as display. I do water changes all together qt and display and the water comes from the same batches. I did dip for bugs with interceptor and like to observe for any changes in the coral after that ( I don't want undesirables in the tank). As for acclimation, I floated the coral in a container until temp was close and then started a fairly good paced drip line where I was changing 1/4 of the containers every 20minutes or so for a totally water change time of about 2.5hours then find nice shady spot in display tank and down it goes. The coral looked great in the am but by the late pm you see what happened. The flow was mod was moderate at best.
Mahalo Eric

[Aquaman_68]

Eric, What are you using to check salinity? Refractometer or a hydrometer? (hydrometers have been known to be off a bit...)

The alk level is probably what took out the BN...BN's are very sensitive to alk level swings.....I know that those are usually the first to shows signs when your KH shifts in your tank & has gone undetected. (or not checked recently....) On another note...I suggest you lower the KH down a bit...No reason to have it that high...The only benifit for raising it that high is to eliminate nuiscence algae...I wouldn't run it contantly at that range....

HTH...Need any advise..shoot me a pm..
B

PS the only acclimating I do is removing it from the dip container to a tank water rinse cup for a min & then I grab it out of the container & drop it in the tank.... (always want to keep it away from direct lighting or find a shady spot while the lighting is on full light period)

IME most of the above acclimating procedures do work....I just don't find a need in my system....What I do check is how different the parameters are in the new subjects bag to my system.....

Just as a reference....
My system is pretty close to NSW so even if they are way off from mine (parameters) Usually the corals open up within a day or so...

[KyleinCT]

So Brian, if you are running at close to NSW, you are running SG at 1.022?

I tend to get alarmed if my SG dips below 1.024 anywhere???

[Aquaman_68]

So Brian, if you are running at close to NSW, you are running SG at 1.022?

I tend to get alarmed if my SG dips below 1.024 anywhere???
My reference on running close to NSW was to Alk/KH

On the SPG note:

SPG is varied in different tropic regions... (& they can shift quite a bit in tidal pools as well....)
An SPG at 1.022 is the extreme low for most regions in the wild & not the majority.....If you want to start comparisions there are regions at oppisite ends of the spectrum. The spg in those areas can be in the 1.030 range & possibly higher.......

BTW..... I wouldn't suggest running my tank at either above level......

I run mine at 1026 & have been doing so from the begining of my reef hobby..


FWIW.....Anything lower causes the respiration rate in animals to be raised. Higher Respiratory rate = shorter life expectancy....

HTH with the misunderstnding you acquried from my last post & also helps others from also misunderstanding....;)
B

[chew*]

I run preety much the same, 1.026 SG, 7.7-7.9 KH, 420 CA, 1400-1450 MG, and try to keep my nitrates below 10ppm and phosphates at .01 ppm........I also run low nutrient in all tanks in order to keep my ORP higher and i skim wet to aid ORP also......Food for thought my skimmer can go days without skimming until i do a water change( then it will fill up to 2-3 cups a day for 2-3 days ), thats how clean i run my tank.....

[Jacksparrow]

Aloha folks, Ok I will lower my alk slowly and see how it affects the rest of my corals. I never thought BN where that sensitive. The WW I got from you B is doing fantastic and so are the caps and digi. I do testing weekly for everything there is a kit for but that's just my OCD coming out. I am using a Refractometer to check my salinity and I do use Elos test kits (not that the type of test kits make that much of a difference, I think they all are a approximation anyway). I did check the Alk/Kh in the shipping water and the Alk was 2.9 and the Kh was 9. I am having trouble maintaining a rock steady Mag level and haven't been able to figure out why. I drift from 1250 to 1500, I dose with ESV Mag and also use their Calcium and Alk two part system and have had no problems in the past maintaining mag,cal and alk levels. I guess with BN's being so sensitive, how llong should I leave them in the shadows for? I leave my acro's in the lower part of the tank for about 1.5 weeks and then slowly bring them up. Should I do the same with BN?

Mahalo for all the help Eric
(I hate when animals die because of lack of knowledge)

[Aquaman_68]

I wouldn't say the BN died from lack of knowledge..Your gonna have loses, always...(with more experience the less you will have..) BTW...experience sometimes comes from loses!!! (don't beat yourself up over it) http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aktion/action-smiley-060.gif

As far as the mag...Don't worry so much about it....If your in the range of 1100 to 1200 that's cool.....When you try to be too anal on mag it can sometimes bite you in the http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aktion/action-smiley-081.gif

Problem with all mag suppliments out there. (no matter which one you use or prefer due to cost or whatever) They have high levels of phosphates....

Everytime you add that stuff your adding phosphates....So basically your making one level correct & throwing another out of wack!!!

The other problem....
If you try to add too much & your water is already quite saturated you will end up with percipitation...(the sandbed will then be saturated with the suppliment & will add levels of phospahtes to toxic concentrated levels)

It can also harden the sandbed causing a biological bacteria die off from suffocation. (the top level of the sand will harden from the excess suppliment)


BTW...this can happen with Ca suppliments as well!!!!

HTH....BTW...glad the WW & montis are doing well!!! If you have any questions...Shoot me a pm!!

B

[smcnally]

If I remember correctly I read that it wasn't quite 100% kill rate at the original recommended dosage (Although I've never seen the 80% number anywhere). But, since the original treatment was discussed, it has also been found that you can give a MUCH higher dose which will kill 100%. I did a double dose once and they never came back.

[smcnally]

Problem with all mag suppliments out there. (no matter which one you use or prefer due to cost or whatever) They have high levels of phosphates....

Are you sure about that, Brian? I could swear I read that Mag Flake had very little phosphates:confused:

[Aquaman_68]

Are you sure about that, Brian? I could swear I read that Mag Flake had very little phosphates:confused:

I tested it with liams phosphate meter...Off the charts!!!:eek: which is understandable...

[smcnally]

Hmmm...I just tried looking up what levels it has in it and came across something else...I'll start a new thread about it though.

[chew*]

Brians statement is true actually I was dosing it for coraline.......which can also bite you in the !!! in the form of more than necessary tank maintenance and the need to remove phosphates.........

[smcnally]

Brain, which solution did you use? The type I use says this

This is a special High Purity Magnesium Chloride that is specifically made for the aquarium industry. This product does not contain any phosphates or ammonia.

[chew*]

Brain, which solution did you use? The type I use says this

Just some FYI on the back of my ESV bottle it says this "B-ionic Magnesium does not contain nitrates,phosphates, organics or chelating agents"

We all know differently however.........I never believe "claims" made by manufacturers.......

[lizzardking]

my seachem bottle says nothing about phosphates....just that its ammonia free...

[smcnally]

Just some FYI on the back of my ESV bottle it says this "B-ionic Magnesium does not contain nitrates,phosphates, organics or chelating agents"

We all know differently however.........I never believe "claims" made by manufacturers.......

True...But I also know for a fact that my phosphates stay at 0ppm unless my filters need a change.

[Aquaman_68]

Brain, which solution did you use? The type I use says this
I tested ESV, TLF & also Randys two part...They were all screaming with P04

[smcnally]

I tested ESV, TLF & also Randys two part...They were all screaming with P04

What would "screaming" be? IMO, if you're testing the pure supplement then of coarse it will read high if there is even the tiniest trace of it in there. 1 ppm means there is one mg of phosphate per liter of fluid. Say your reading is 100ppm of phosphates then it is going to get ridiculously diluted when added to gallons of water. Am I wrong thinking of it this way?

[Aquaman_68]

What would "screaming" be? IMO, if you're testing the pure supplement then of coarse it will read high if there is even the tiniest trace of it in there. 1 ppm means there is one mg of phosphate per liter of fluid. Say your reading is 100ppm of phosphates then it is going to get ridiculously diluted when added to gallons of water. Am I wrong thinking of it this way?

I think it was like 600 or 800 ppm...It was over a year ago & I didn't bother to jot it down.....I just decided from that point on I wouldn't be using them any longer.....
Dilution is the solution to polution...If I know something I'm putting in my tank has phosphates in it I'm not going to use it!!! Period.....It's not how much phosphates it translates to when your talking water volume versus amount your adding...

Doesn't it make you feel...like...Nah I'm not going there!!! ?
FWIW...don't think of the small amount your adding to the water volume your adding it to.....
It's long term effects as the phosphates build up from prolonged use.....

I'm just not going to use it.....

But.....
Steve, If you feel it isn't a problem than dump away!!;)

For me...That reading was enough to say nah.

HTH
B

[smcnally]

You'd better stop using your salt mix then! ;) I bet if you took a concentrated amount and tested it the same way that you would get a phosphate reading. 600-800 ppm in something that concentrated is nothing. When you add that to your tank you are probably bumping the phosphates up in the parts per billion.

[smcnally]

Just to give people an idea of how much you would have to add...Randy's Magnesium mix has somewhere around 47,000 ppm of magnesium. If you want to raise the magnesium up 10 ppm in a 100 gallon tank you would need to add an ounce.

[Jacksparrow]

Aloha all, B I also was wondering what you use for Mag? I really want to use Randy's Mag Mix but time is not my friend right now. If your readings are accurate ( which I'm sure they are) that is a huge amount of PO4 but mine always read zero. Maybe it's because I can't keep my mag up? Well great thread anyway and Mahalo for all the help. Eric

[chew*]

If Brian doesn't mind me replying he uses a salt mix which doesn't require him to supplement MG, Tropic marin.........

[Aquaman_68]

You'd better stop using your salt mix then! ;) I bet if you took a concentrated amount and tested it the same way that you would get a phosphate reading. 600-800 ppm in something that concentrated is nothing. When you add that to your tank you are probably bumping the phosphates up in the parts per billion.
Oh maybe I'll switch to IO then!!! Not
You can't get the phosphate reading from a kit that these mag sups contain....They are loaded with inorganic phosphates...That form of phosphate isn't detectable to the reef test kits on the market....

I've done extensive research as well as spent loads & loads of money in this area... From high end test kits to having things tested in special brine labs from experts in this area...

So if you think your dilution method works....Use it..Wise cracks about salt.....There not needed, Dude..

Steve, Please do me as well as Eric a favor here......Leave your opinions on your own thread under the subject you continue to discuss here.

This matter doesn't even pertain to the original thread question from the originator This has gotten way off from the original subject the originator was looking answers for...

Sorry, Eric.. for the hijack....

[Aquaman_68]

Aloha all, B I also was wondering what you use for Mag? I really want to use Randy's Mag Mix but time is not my friend right now. If your readings are accurate ( which I'm sure they are) that is a huge amount of PO4 but mine always read zero. Maybe it's because I can't keep my mag up? Well great thread anyway and Mahalo for all the help. Eric


I use a small amount of dolemite in my ca reactor to suppliment Mag.....IMO & also IME it has not had any long term effects in my system. (I also use TM salt which is higher in mag levels to start...so between the two I'm close to where I want to be... I'm sure people will chime in & say how dolemite is bad becuase it has traces of arsenic. etc.....I'm using very little & the traces that are there are much lower than the IO phosphates. (in the PPB to start)

HTH answer your question, Eric

If you want you can PM me & I will let you know the formula...
B

[smcnally]

So if you think your dilution method works....Use it..Wise cracks about salt.....There not needed, Dude..

I'm sorry...I thought you had a sense of humor :rolleyes:

Steve, Please do me as well as Eric a favor here......Leave your opinions on your own thread under the subject you continue to discuss here.

If I'm not mistaken, you and chew started with the opinions and I was just arguing your opinions with my own. From now on, I'll just remember that you both are better than me and leave it at that. FWIW, Randy Holmes Farley has always said that the levels of phosphates in his mixure (the one with Epsom Salts in it) is nothing to worry about. I'll believe him over you two any day of the week.

This matter doesn't even pertain to the original thread question from the originator This has gotten way off from the original subject the originator was looking answers for...

Sorry, Eric.. for the hijack....

Actually it does...You guys brought it up and I was trying to give a different opinion on it. The difference is I don't speak about it like I'm an expert. I have no doubt you are an experienced reef keeper, but sometimes I feel like you think you are above everyone else here. The thing that made me chime in is that there are people here (like "chew") that follow every piece of advice from you and other experienced people like it is the only way to go. You have your reasons to do things your way, but the fact is people have been using Mg supplements for years with no adverse affects.

[Aquaman_68]

I'm sorry...I thought you had a sense of humor :rolleyes:

Actually I do



FWIW, Randy Holmes Farley has always said that the levels of phosphates in his mixure (the one with Epsom Salts in it) is nothing to worry about. I'll believe him over you two any day of the week.

:p






Actually it does...You guys brought it up and I was trying to give a different opinion on it. The difference is I don't speak about it like I'm an expert. I have no doubt you are an experienced reef keeper, but sometimes I feel like you think you are above everyone else here. The thing that made me chime in is that there are people here (like "chew") that follow every piece of advice from you and other experienced people like it is the only way to go. You have your reasons to do things your way, but the fact is people have been using Mg supplements for years with no adverse affects.
Ok so I mentioned it.....I didn't mention it for it to become a page & a half discussion....
In closing I may add:

You know the problem here? Unfortunatly....You are one who feels or gets a sense that I think I know it all. (your not the only one either)


Pretty Sad I may say......

People who feel that way just don't know me...
There is more than one way to skin a cat & I never (may I say NEVER) tell anyone or want anyone to think my way is the only way.
As I've said in the past.....proof is in the pudding.....If your running a softie lps tank you don't have to worry much about phopsphate levels as much as you Do in an SPS system....Add a mixed reef & that is an even different animal. It becomes more critical...
So it does make a difference where advise lies & it is compliled from.

Listen to who you want.....I really don't care & enjoy your softies

BTW...I have a sense of humor but when someone attacks me openly I don't usually back down. (That is why I get time outs)

Steve, In the future it would be nice if you weren't so hostile.
I don't think I deserve it...

[smcnally]

I never did attack you. I was questioning what you were saying (I think there is a very big difference). What do you mean "your softies"? Do you not remember that I had a very successful mixed reef with very large acro colonies that started out from small frags? Only one colony in that tank was purchased as a colony. Don't try and downplay my experience in the hobby...I didn't even come close to doing that to you.

[smcnally]

BTW...I ran that mixed reef for over 2 years with only one RTN incident due to an Alk issue with my reactor and never had a crash so I must be doing something right. I've been running my new tank (which is more of a mixed reef than softie since I have more LPS than anything in there) for only a couple of months.

[highpower9979]

for what it is worth i dont think that he is downplaying your experience at all

[Greg Hiller]

Good discussion, glad to see the advanced forum getting some use. :)

A few comments:

>Problem with all mag suppliments out there. (no matter which one you use or prefer due to cost or whatever) They have high levels of phosphates....<

I was not aware of this. It would be worthwhile to know how you did your testing. Testing a pure solution of concentrated magnesium chloride with a standard test kit (even the Hanna meter) might give you a false reading due to the test kit not being designed for testing a high concentration solution (not saying you did this, I'd just be very careful with testing like this).

A good way to test for something like this (I think) would be to add enough of the magnesium supplement to an aliquot of water from your tank to increase the magnesium by 200 ppm or so. Then see what the Hanna meter gives you for a change in PO4 levels. I'd say if it was less than a 0.02 ppm increase, it would not be a big deal. The Hanna meter should be able to test for this level of increase. In the initial testing of the Liam's meter that I did before the club purchased the meter it was sufficiently sensitive in this range.

>The other problem....
If you try to add too much & your water is already quite saturated you will end up with percipitation...(the sandbed will then be saturated with the suppliment & will add levels of phospahtes to toxic concentrated levels) <

Actually, if you are talking about magnesium I don't think that precipitation is likely to occur in the ranges that we are talking about (a 100-400 ppm increase in magnesium). I bumped magnesium up to around 1500 once with no apparent issues in an isolated tank. Magnesium carbonate (unlike calcium) is not supersaturated in seawater. If in fact a lot of phosphate comes in at the same time, I'd agree that the phosphate would be a big problem just to the coral health. But phosphate actually 'poisons' the growing crystal (stopping it's growth) when calcium carbonate is attempting to precipitate in seawater. This is why high phosphate is bad for corals.

In talking about calcium preciptation events linked to an addition of a seed crystal for precipitation to start on Randy has this to say about the interaction of magnesium and calcium (from http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2002/chem.htm):

What processes inhibit continued precipitation of CaCO3 onto a growing crystal? The main thing happening in normal seawater is likely the impact of magnesium. It does two critical things:

1. Magnesium holds onto carbonate ions and reduces their free concentration, thereby reducing the likelihood of precipitation onto calcium carbonate surfaces.

2. Magnesium gets onto the growing surface of the crystal, essentially poisoning it for further precipitation of calcium carbonate.

Note that while both of these processes inhibit precipitation of calcium carbonate, the first actually increases the solubility, whereas the second does not. It is worth noting that the solubility of calcium carbonate in seawater is about 26 times higher than in freshwater at the same temperature, and this first effect of magnesium is one of the reasons.

>It can also harden the sandbed causing a biological bacteria die off from suffocation. (the top level of the sand will harden from the excess suppliment)

BTW...this can happen with Ca suppliments as well!!!!<

I think that it would only happen with calcium supplements. And only if alk and calcium are high, and also if pH is high at the same time. This is usually only a problem with newly set up tanks with a lot of new, clean fresh sand. Once the sand gets a bit of a natural layer of proteinaceous 'stuff' on it's surface, calcium carbonate is much less likely to precipitate out on it.

>You can't get the phosphate reading from a kit that these mag sups contain....They are loaded with inorganic phosphates...That form of phosphate isn't detectable to the reef test kits on the market....<

While I believe that the form of phosphate that is likely to be in these supplements is in fact inorganic, I believe that it is in fact organic phosphate that cannot be easily tested for.

Some more from an older article by Randy (http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=2276):

A second point about organic phosphates is that they will mostly not be impacted by phosphate-binding materials sold to the aquarium hobby. Consequently, while these may do a fine job of reducing inorganic phosphate, they won’t help an algae problem that is caused by organic phosphates.

A final point is that organic phosphates will not be detected by any hobby kit unless it is specifically designed to detect them (most do not). Those that do (e.g., Hach PO-24) break the phosphate off of the organic and thereby convert it into inorganic phosphate prior to testing.

FWIW, I went back and looked at the elemental analysis of the Dead Sea Works magnesium chloride that we purchased several years back (most sources of magnesium chloride would be similar, don't know how magnesium sulfate would compare, but it's best to use a mix of the two, fwiw):

Element Typical(ppm) Maximum(ppm)

Mg 115000(11.5%) 125000 (12.5%)
Ca 7000 8000
Br 5000 8000
K 2500 3500
S(SO42-) 180 200
Sr 120 150
B 20 30
Li 10 15
N* 4 5
Si 9 15
Fe 3 10
P 2 3

I believe this analysis was performed by ICP. It lists P (phosphorus) as a maximum of 3 ppm (typical of 2 ppm), compared with 115,000 ppm for magnesium. An ICP analysis would burn up and convert any phosphate molecules to phosphorus atoms I believe. Using this analysis with the 'typical' value for P, an addition of sufficient MgCl2.6H20 to increase the Mg level in your tank by 200 ppm would increase your phosphorus levels in your tank by 0.0035 ppm, or 0.0107 ppm phosphate. So, looking back at all this now, if you dosed enough MgCl2.6h20 to increase the Mg by about 400 ppm, you'd probably Just barely be able to detect the difference using the Hanna meter (0.02 ppm increase).

[Aquaman_68]

I'm glad you think this discussion has been good!!!:confused:
Even though I was not going to.......I have to respond here.....


Greg, There are so many areas I could discuss with you openly on this subject which will become contradicting to your above statements (as you've done when you replied to a large portion of my quotes)
I will refrain from doing so......

If I do, it will turn into something most people won't bother to even read ...Which is the whole reason we post in the first place....It kills me though when I see posts with chemical analysis.....
Those are done on one batch or a small lot...

I have many things I disagree with.....Problem is: It isn't worth it to me at this point to waste any more time with this matter.
Let me put it as nice as I can here.... (& I'm not trying to sound arrogant people.)
I don't agree with some methods you believe in when it comes to reefing.
(as well as others mentioned above but I usually keep them to myself)

& I'm sure other do this as well!!! (not with any one person in particular)

I'm also aware by some statements above that you don't agree with some of my methods as well.
I'm fine with that..
I've tried things in this hobby ....Tested , compaired & tested again & again. I've compiled what works & doesn't work for me.....(this is from 8 plus years of reefing)
I've never written articles for online magazines which has fueled my exposure in the hobby (& got paid to do so)

I'm not a chemist & never claimed to be......


But I know what it takes for me to be succesful in this hobby longterm....
So if all I've done is teach myself...so be it


Sorry if this sounds like I'm coming off the wrong way.....
My passion in this hobby can be perceived as something else.....

BTW.....I hope I haven't struck a nerve...Not trying to in any way....;)

B

[Greg Hiller]

Brian,

I'm not debating your methods so much as I am some of your statements regarding the reasoning. For instance, I agree that getting worked up over magnesium is not super important, meaning if you have it above 1200 ppm, you are probably fine. However, Not adding it to a tank to boost it back up into that range because one is worried about phosphate being added at the same time I think is not a good thing for people to come away with after reading this thread.

I have no doubt that you are quite successful, but everyone's tank is different, and I hope that people reading threads like this will be able to learn from what they've read, and apply it to their tank. That's difficult if the person reading doesn't come away with a more fundamental understanding of what is happening and why.

You mention the question about chemical analysis. For the analysis that I posted you will see that there are two values, one is the typical level, and one the maximum level. For most chemical manufacturers, these tests are performed on every lot, and the numbers they report are based on what they've seen over the course of the history of the manufactur of the product. I often find it valuble to look at this type of data because it allows me to do a few quick calculations to determine how important a factor is. It's very easy to say (and accurate and I'll be the first to agree) that all, or nearly all magnesium supplements have phosphate in them, the more important question is (as I see it), are the levels that would end up being added to a tank for an occasional adjustment to magnesium levels be likely to cause a problem? The same goes for anything I add to my tank.

[Aquaman_68]

Greg, I agree with the comment on leaving someone with less experience or
( a newbie with the wrong impression that is)

I'm usually pretty clear on that though....If you read back on this thread you will see that it was mentioned that TM salt (the one I use.... has a higher level of mag & also I use dolemite in my CA reactor to add depleted mag)

You may have missed it...but when a thread becomes more than a page it can get skimmed by!!!;)

B

[JeremyR]

I'm not sure if I would fully trust that "icp" analysis.. the company itself states there can be high ammonia levels, and our batch grew lots of funky scum in the bucket even after a few days.. so there was definitely some serious bacteria food in it. I'll never use it again.

[Greg Hiller]

Jeremy,

Caution is certainly in order for anything like this. I myself pretty much only use the Magnesium chloride that we got in the group buy years ago. That, I tested for ammonia myself and it was nearly undectable. Of course there are plenty of other things I could not, or did not test for....so....user beware. For anyone using batches of the MAG flake purchased at a hardware store, I suggest you a least test for ammonia using a hobbyist test kit.

[JeremyR]

Our bag was from that group buy FWIW.