Finishing a DIY Stand?

[dedfish]

My stand construction is complete and I now need to finish it off with some stain and or paint. What do you recommend for a finishing process? Paint the inside? Stain the outside? What kind of paint and stain do you recommend? How about poly? Spray on brush on? I have stained a few stand before, but I always end up doing a poor job and since I really like this stand I want to do it right.

Thanks!

[willray]

Stain or paint?Paint if the wood is not nice otherwise, stain -let dry-sand lightly with 220 grit-Light coat of poly-let dry-sand w/220-light coat of poly-sand w/ 300-400 grit-
heavy coat of poly-sand w/400 grit-one last coat of poly. Do this and you will love the finish.
Bill P.

[NateHanson]

What kind of wood is it? Some woods stain better than others.

If you used a difficult to stain wood, you can skip the stain and use a tinted polyurethane for your finish. Those don't absorb unevenly the way an oil-based stain can.

[dedfish]

The stand is wrapped in birch ply and has pine trim.

[delta]

if you stain dont brush on then wipe it off you have no control over it this way

i know its messy but a clean rag application is the best way to get a nice even finish and saves alot of stain. just dip it in the stain and rub it in till you get an even application ( practice first on a few pieces of wood)

if you brush on a heavy coat then wipe it off like the can says you cannot control the amount of stain the penetrates and if it puddle (which it always does in the corners) it will be darker in these spot

HTH

[Matt L.]

I stained my pine DIY canopy skirt and other stand modifications with a polyuerethane (sp?) stain that I found at HD. I do have the matching information for AGA pine. This was not easy to do, as I had to drag the whole canopy into HD and match it against the color charts. When I go home, I can post which HD stain matches AGA pine (oak stained),

Matt:cool:

[dedfish]

Matt, Thanks for the offer, but I think I may have confused you. I am not trying to match my stain to my tank trim. What I meant was that I my stand is wrapped in pirch plywood, but I used pine molding for the stand trim. Will the birch and pine stain differently?

[NateHanson]

They might, but probably not too bad. pine and birch stain pretty well. I'd sand both with 120, or certainly no higher than 150 if you're going to stain. Otherwise the birch won't take the stain.

Water based stain is the most even - brush on with a foam brush, and wipe off with a wet rag if you want it lighter - but I don't think you can find them at HD etc. If you're interested, you can get Lockwood stains at Johnson paint in Woburn or Boston, or you can probably get water based stains at Rockler or Woodcraft.

Nate

[dedfish]

Ok...I just got back from Rockler. I picked up some plugs to cover the screw holes. I tried to speak with the guy there about stains and wood filler and I didn't find him to be a ton of help.

If I go with a water based stain do I need to follow up with a top coat(poly) from the same brand? The water based stain I ws looking at was Environment Friendly by www.generalfinishes.com. Are there better top coat brands? Any recommendations?

The directions for the water based stain talk about using #100 and #180 to sand, but Nate you say no more than #150? Should I start with #100 and then move to #150 or is just the #150 enough?

Wood filler? The guy at the store recommended staining first an then using a filler based to match the stain. Opinions on this? I'm confused. I never knew you had an option. I thought it was always fill then stain. Any brands better than others? Do I need to be concerned about getting one filler for the birch ply and another for the pine molding trim?

[NateHanson]

Ok...I just got back from Rockler. I picked up some plugs to cover the screw holes. I tried to speak with the guy there about stains and wood filler and I didn't find him to be a ton of help.

Sadly, not suprising. I'm not a fan of Rockler.

If I go with a water based stain do I need to follow up with a top coat(poly) from the same brand? The water based stain I ws looking at was Environment Friendly by www.generalfinishes.com. Are there better top coat brands? Any recommendations?

You don't need to use the same brand stain and finish. For future stains (or other interested folks reading this thread) check out Lockwood stains online www.wdlockwood.com, they have color samples on the website. You can get almost any lockwood stain powder at Johnson Paint in Boston, Woburn, or Melrose www.johnsonpaint.com (mostly stocked in the Boston store, so call and they'll bring it to the other locations for you). It's super cheap in powder form (a couple bucks an ounce - mixes to about a quart).

For a top coat, the best stuff is Epiphanes Varnish (not spar varnish). It's a much better looking varnish than polyurethane (it's an alkyd resin varnish, I believe). It's very durable, fairly easy to brush, and rubs out well. Whatever you use, sand with 400 grit between coats (0000 steel wool on moulding), and then after the final coat rub out with 0000 steel wool for a semi-gloss finish. If you want a glossy finish you can subsequently polish with car polishing compounds, or traditional polishing copounds (pumice, then rottenstone on a wet felt block).

The directions for the water based stain talk about using #100 and #180 to sand, but Nate you say no more than #150? Should I start with #100 and then move to #150 or is just the #150 enough?

I was referring to oil-based pigment stains (the minwax type of stains in a can). Those stains are a suspension of solid pigments suspended in mineral spirits (or some other oil-base), and you don't want to sand very hight, because oil stain works by the stain solids getting stuck in all the scratches and indentations of the wood. If you make a very smooth surface, especially in hardwoods the staining is very uneven. Regardless of the prep work, they're really hideous, IMO, and obscure the wood, stain unevenly, and collect in the pores. I only use them if I have to match a piece of furniture that was originally finished with oil pigment.

Since you're using a water based stain (good choice!) you can sand as high as you like. I usually sand to 180 or 220. You should always work your way up without skipping grits. Otherwise you'll have to sand much much harder and longer to get out the previous defects. I'd do 120, 150, 180. (100 grit shouldn't be necessary unless you have large gouges or defects.)

Wood filler? The guy at the store recommended staining first an then using a filler based to match the stain. Opinions on this? I'm confused. I never knew you had an option. I thought it was always fill then stain. Any brands better than others? Do I need to be concerned about getting one filler for the birch ply and another for the pine molding trim?

Filler can be confusing because it refers to two distinct products. People comonly refer to wood putty used to fill nail holes and such as filler, and furnituremakers also refer to products wiped onto an entire project to fill and level the grain of open-pored woods such as mahogany and oak, before finishing, to achieve a smoother varnishing surface. You don't need to use grain-filler on birch or pine. I don't usually use wood puddy for small holes because it might not stain the same way as the wood. Test it out first to see if it takes the water-based stain. It may not because it's probably oil-based. The best way to get a color match with wood filler is to find a filler that matches the color of your stained wood (when between shades, use a darker filler rather than a lighter one). Or you can mix oil pigments (sometimes called japan pigments - available at rockler I believe) into wood putty to get a filler that matches your stained wood.

The other option for filling very small holes is to use a wax pen. You can get them in a variety of colors from Woodcraft, probably Rockler, and I've even seen them at HD. Between 2nd and 3rd coats of varnish, smear some wax into the little holes, and wipe it off so it's level with the surface. If you can find the right color, this repair is basically unnoticeable, and super easy. It only works on fairly small defects, like the size of a ball-point pen tip. I use stuff like that a lot. (the thing I use most is burn-in shellac sticks, which come in tons of colors, and are melted into the defect with a hot-knife, then leveled with a chisel before the last coat of finish is applied - but that's probably more trouble than it's worth.)

You probably won't need different stains for the birch and pine, but give it a test on scrap to find out. You can always put two coats on one wood if it isn't taking as much stain.

Good luck.
Nate

[dedfish]

Thanks Nate! I love detailed answers like that. Gives me a much better understanding of things.

[NateHanson]

Sure, feel free to let me know if you have other questions or need to find supplies or something. I realize that the finishing regimes I use are probably overkill for a simple fish stand, but you used high quality materials in the construction, and it looks great, so why not put a high quality finish on it, right?

Finishing can be a long painful process sometimes, and I sometimes find it less fun than the woodworking, but being careful and thorough with finishing really pays off in the end.

Another thing I should add is that you should always brush stain or finish onto a horizontal surface to prevent runs. That may mean flipping your workpiece around some, but it'll save a lot of time when rubbing out the finish. Also, use a natural bristle brush for the varnish. And whatever varnish you use, you'll probably want to get the appropriate thinner (Epiphanes has a specific brushing thinner) and thin the finish moderately for the first coat, and then only slightly for the subsequent coats. It will make the finish flow better, and will decrease brush-marks and lap-marks.

Nate

[~Flighty~]

If you use a solvent, don't put solvent soaked rags in a closed container. They will spontaneously combust. My parents neighbor burned their house down (and almost the whole neighborhood) this way.

[NateHanson]

Good warning Cindy, although, a metal trash can with a tight fitting lid is a safe way to store used rags. Even better if it's outside. Another option is to hang them on the side of a trash can until dry. That way they can't build up enough heat to combust. What you don't want to do is leave them in a pile on the floor or in a trash can. They produce heat as the oils break down and you either need to leave them somewhere devoid of oxygen, or somewhere where the heat will dissipate as fast as it is produced.

[dedfish]

How's outside in a bag in the snow? Maybe I could use the rags to melt my driveway...hmmm. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone. :)

[NateHanson]

In this weather, anwhere outside should be fine, I think. But avoid putting a big heap in one place. Spread them out so they can't heat up. Safest would probably be your neighbors trash cans, if he keeps them outside. ;)

[~Flighty~]

People tend to stick them in a plastic bag and tie it up because the fumes stink. I posted that because I caught Eloit doing that when he finished the entertainment center. We had a big argument about wether it was a myth or not (not). It was only a couple of months later that the house burned down next to my parent's place. "Professional" painters left a container full of wet rags over the weekend.

[dedfish]

If I spread them out how am I too melt the 2 inch of snow in my driveway!

But seriuosly, thanks for the word of warning.

[dedfish]

One more question...after I glue the plugs into the screw holes, what is the best way to trim them down? Just some sanding? The plugs I have will probably stick out nearly 1/4".

[NateHanson]

Do you have a sharp chisel? That's the best way to trim them flush, then just a touch of sanding. You have to make sure that you put your chisel on the downhill side of the grain (which will likely be running at a slight angle to the surface of your work). If you cut from the uphill side of the grain it will split the plug off below the surface of your work, and then you're sunk.

If you don't have a chisel, you can try sanding, but that's a hell of a lot of sanding, and it'll be hard not to sand through the birch veneer in the plywood while you're trying to get the plug down flush.

[dedfish]

Thanks Nate. I got all the plugs in today but it was not as easy as I imagined. My holes were a little too small and I ended up having to go to home depot to get a drill bit to enlarge them just a bit. In the end the plugs went in and they shouldn't be too dificult to sand down. I used my dremel and a sanding bit to shorten them a bit before glueing them in. Worked out pretty good, much better than trying to fill it with filler ever would have. You've been a great help.

[Deafasa]

Hi Nate,
I should of asked you before I stained my stand and canopy. I used the Epiphanes, but I used their spar varnish product. What a pain in the butt. I now use a different product, I think it is minwax spar varnish, from HD. I would have to check the can at home to see the exact name.

dedfish, you might want to think about putting some kind of liner in the bottom of your stand. That way if anything in the stand leaks or slightly overflows it will be contained in the liner instead of dumping on the floor.

I can second the don't store the stain rags inside. My parents were on the building comittee for a temple in Vermont. They were replacing on old barn with a new post and beam structure. The workers from the company hired to finish the wood left the oil rags that they used in a pile on the floor. It was the middle of winter, but the heat was on (normal temp, not cranked to 90) so the finish would dry. Needless to say, the rags caught fire. The only thing that saved the building was that the heat from the fire cracked a water pipe and prevented it from getting out of control before the fire company showed up. If the rags hadn't been directly over that water pipe more then likely the structure would have had to have been torn down and rebuilt.

Jeff

[NateHanson]

Personally I wouldn't use a spar varnish of any sort. It's too soft to be easy to use and provide a nice rubbed finish. It's originally intended for wood parts like boat spars (mast/boom etc) that need to flex without cracking the finish. I'd look for an alkyd resin varnish ideally.

[dedfish]

I finally got the darn thing stained! Woohoo! I need to paint the inside and poly the outside and I'll be done. I'll try to snap a few pictures at lunch.

[NateHanson]

What are you using to paint the inside? I'd spring for the garage floor paint. It's a little pricey, but I think it would have been a good idea. The inside of my stand is peeling a bit.

Nate

[dedfish]

I was just gonna use some white latex cheap stuff. I really want to get this done, but I couldn't be more strapped for cash at the moment. Suckage!

[NateHanson]

Yeah, I just used a latex paint I had around. Parts that are wet frequently have peeled, but it's not really a big deal.

I was too strapped at the time to pay $20 for a gallon of the good stuff.

It's not a big deal in the end. Just use what you've got if you want to save your pennies for corals (and heating oil!). It's not a real important detail in the end.

Nate