If wild collection were to end tomorrow, would it be a big deal?

[Greg Hiller]

Of corals and anemones I mean.

I say no. There's now only one coral in my 400 gallon system that I've never propagated (and I plan to do it, long tentacled place, Heliofungia). The BRS marketplace is Bulging with corals and bubble tip anemones available for sale that were likely mostly grown in aquariums. There are also many large aquaculture facilities operating full tilt here in the US.

I'm not saying I'm advocating for wild collection to stop as I think as long as it's done carefully it is sustainable.

[Scott]

Of corals and anemones I mean.

I say no. There's now only one coral in my 400 gallon system that I've never propagated (and I plan to do it, long tentacled place, Heliofungia). The BRS marketplace is Bulging with corals and bubble tip anemones available for sale that were likely mostly grown in aquariums. There are also many large aquaculture facilities operating full tilt here in the US.

I'm not saying I'm advocating for wild collection to stop as I think as long as it's done carefully it is sustainable.

I wonder if you put all the reef tanks together, how it would compare to the size of the wild coral reefs. Has anybody ever estimated that?

[Jeff.:P]

I think on they tried to get a total gallon amount of everyones tank on nano-reef. Maybe we should give it a try, would be interesting..

[Joel A]

Of corals and anemones I mean.

I say no. There's now only one coral in my 400 gallon system that I've never propagated (and I plan to do it, long tentacled place, Heliofungia). The BRS marketplace is Bulging with corals and bubble tip anemones available for sale that were likely mostly grown in aquariums. There are also many large aquaculture facilities operating full tilt here in the US.

I'm not saying I'm advocating for wild collection to stop as I think as long as it's done carefully it is sustainable.

I don't think it would impact all that much... but many things that people never propagate would eventually disappear... like for instance the elegance coral... no one really tries to frag those because they are so delicate.... so those would eventually disappear from the hobby.. along with other very sensitive inverts like certain anemones and sponges and gorgonians.

[Aquadiva]

IMHO..... prices would skyrocket... most LFS would be out of business, as they have a hard enough time compete with online vendors for drygoods....

I would hazard a guess that a lot more stuff dies in people's tanks than they are willing to admit. Especially, in the NE.... look at how many tanks got wiped out during the ice storm... I know, I lost two, but managed to keep the main tank in a somewhat stable condition.

People are busting down their tanks left and right, because of the economy. There is a lot of "extra" equipment and livestock flying around lately.

[delta]

I Agree that the hobby wouldn't be dead, but there would be a huge change in the market and the cost of running a system. I am could live with
the amount of types of coral in the hobby now.

Hard to say if the vendor have enough in country aquaculture to sustain businesses selling corals. But I am sure there would be a huge surge in hobbyist trading.

People are busting down their tanks left and right, because of the economy. There is a lot of "extra" equipment and livestock flying around lately.

Also very popular this time of year many people realize summer is here and a tank will weigh them down.

[Aquadiva]

Also very popular this time of year many people realize summer is here and a tank will weigh them down.

Hmmm... I would have to go back and check, but I kinda remember the summer being really slooooooowwwww.... Mid Aug starts to pick up when people realize they neglected their system all summer, and it's beginning to look like crap and have problems. They either start to look for solutions or toss up their hands and start breaking down their system.

At least that's the impression I've always gotten. :.

[JasonandRay]

typical bostonreefers i dont know if there is not a whole thred that stays on topic =D

[jimmyj7090]

People have other things to do during the summer, so they start giving up on their tanks. It happens every year. We often don't see the sell off until fall when they get back from vacc and realize their tank is a mess from a season of neglect.

IMO, In the big picture, as Greg T said, it would signal a major "change" in things.

We would see less diversity due to the lack of imported species, but everything would be captive bred and likely more durable.

Livestock prices would go up, but healthy sellable trade ins would become much more valuable. Local trading would take on a whole different meaning in a good way.

The hobby would survive, and it just might become a lot more responsible.

People would pay more for locally grown frags, and there would be FAR less stories of newbies buying sickly elegance, moorish idols, unstable gonipora, blue linkas and other "croakers" (as Jeremy would say).

I would worry a bit about the fish that would remain available. No tangs for example. That would be a bummer.

Call it "exploitive hobby darwinism", what we can't sustain in captivity, might just not belong in captivity.

[Miller]

I would be fine with the variety of corals already being succesfully kept and aquacultured in captivity, the majority of the corals we own came from Reefers or Aquaculture Farms.

Now if it were expanded to fishys.....then I would be sad, but I could deal.

[Liam]

Greg are you including wild aquaculture also in your question?

IMO wild aquaculture is the main supply to the industry now as far as sps.
The aquaculture survival rates in captivity are far better than wild collections,the price point is better for the retailer also.
There is a fantastic selection of aquacultered out there these days but i for one like to find something a little different now and again and that can only come from wild collections.

[Aquadiva]

typical bostonreefers i dont know if there is not a whole thred that stays on topic =D

typical people adding comments that add nothing to the community, or the thread...;) My comment, was in answer to Gregs. Sorry if missed the point.



Back on topic:

Although there is a huge amount of diversification being grown in aquaculture facilities, you would have, what you have. Any "new" morphs would have to occur in captivity. I would imagine that the foreign divers making their living shipping corals to the US, would switch to a more "black market" form of enterprise. The price of "new" color morphs would skyrocket, and the finger pointing would being as to where reefer X or store XYZ obtained a particular coral.
Also, as far as the local hobbiest goes. Yes, there is a nice trade in corals. Most of the higher end sps and acans still command a decent return. However, the more common corals -- xenia, some lps and softies are generally given away. ie no resale value. So, people will be paying higher prices for the higher end sps's and lps's from local hobbiests. As newbs kill off that stock, the price will be driven higher and higher, which kill off entrance to the hobby. Pretty soon, you'll have a few "elite" tanks controlling the stock of local hobbiests, and the "mega" aquaculture facilities controlling the retail trade. No a good recipe for price control, IMHO.

[Greg Hiller]

>Greg are you including wild aquaculture also in your question?<

No. Although I guess it depends how they get their stock. Whether they take a small piece or two from the reef and then expand it in their aquaculture 'pens', or whether they are regularly harvesting from the reef. I'm not saying that it's a big deal (regular harvesting), but again, it would need to be done responsibly.

[delta]

Back on topic:

Although there is a huge amount of diversification being grown in aquaculture facilities, you would have, what you have. Any "new" morphs would have to occur in captivity. I would imagine that the foreign divers making their living shipping corals to the US, would switch to a more "black market" form of enterprise. The price of "new" color morphs would skyrocket, and the finger pointing would being as to where reefer X or store XYZ obtained a particular coral.
Also, as far as the local hobbiest goes. Yes, there is a nice trade in corals. Most of the higher end sps and acans still command a decent return. However, the more common corals -- xenia, some lps and softies are generally given away. ie no resale value. So, people will be paying higher prices for the higher end sps's and lps's from local hobbiests. As newbs kill off that stock, the price will be driven higher and higher, which kill off entrance to the hobby. Pretty soon, you'll have a few "elite" tanks controlling the stock of local hobbiests, and the "mega" aquaculture facilities controlling the retail trade. No a good recipe for price control, IMHO.

Or people would be more careful with how they do things. Do not remember who said it to me but one reefer stated t me, reefers in Europe and areas that have a much higher cost of running a reef and less stock to choose from are better reefers than your average American reefer. Reason being Americans can replace livestock easily as it is cheaper and easy to obtain.

No idea how much truth(most likely personal perspective) there is to that statement but the theory behind it makes sense. Much like the way peoples driving habits and car purchases changed as gas skyrocketed, so would your reefing habits.

[Aquaman_68]

Greg are you including wild aquaculture also in your question?

IMO wild aquaculture is the main supply to the industry now as far as sps.
The aquaculture survival rates in captivity are far better than wild collections,the price point is better for the retailer also.
There is a fantastic selection of aquacultered out there these days but i for one like to find something a little different now and again and that can only come from wild collections.

That right there sums it up for me!!! (& I'm not that kind of "I got to get the newest & most popular coral atm")

On another note...we do keep seeing stuff not available inside our reef world being offered from the wild...

As collection areas switch around these things become available for the first time....So if they were to stop all the way...I think it may become boring for us reefers who have been in the hobby 10 plus years.... That part wouldn't bother you, Greg?

[marco67]

I think while a nice idea,
The thought that propagation and breeding can sustain this hobby is a bit naive.
(not that it never could but it's a long way off)

People with an "in" such as a club or an online community would be able to have an "OK" supply but that's where it would end. The thing that's a bit narrow here is that the hobby is so much more vast than clubs and online communities.
One thing that I've learned in this business is that there is a much larger percentage of hobbyists that have no interest in clubs or participating in forums than those that do (and I mean MUCH like 80/20).

so....consider what happens when this market dries up? The hobby becomes this little niche community, There is little to no entry level participation. Most or all mainstream equipment disappears and it costs 4X as much to set up a tank.

[Greg Hiller]

>As collection areas switch around these things become available for the first time....So if they were to stop all the way...I think it may become boring for us reefers who have been in the hobby 10 plus years.... That part wouldn't bother you, Greg? <

From what I've seen there are a huge number of successful reefers in the US. I'm pretty sure that there'd be a large enough variation in all of the species (corals) that that pool of people could draw off that I'd not get bored. As it is, these days it's pretty rare that I come across anything all that new.

[Greg Hiller]

>The thought that propagation and breeding can sustain this hobby is a bit naive. <

Again, I'm not talking about fish. Only corals.

[CharlieHustle]

http://seawayblog.blogspot.com/2009/03/coral-propagators.html

This article give hope that propagation can sustain the hobby. Plus some really cool pics!!

[marco67]

>The thought that propagation and breeding can sustain this hobby is a bit naive. <

Again, I'm not talking about fish. Only corals.

Gotcha
and you are right there are more and more and bigger operations going up every day/ month.
Also though Liam has a good point about that creating a black market (more than already exists)

The other point worth tossing into this is that as I'm sure you well know fish collection destroys coral as much or even more than coral collection.
(or irresponsible fish collection anyhow)

[Aquaman_68]

>As collection areas switch around these things become available for the first time....So if they were to stop all the way...I think it may become boring for us reefers who have been in the hobby 10 plus years.... That part wouldn't bother you, Greg? <

From what I've seen there are a huge number of successful reefers in the US. I'm pretty sure that there'd be a large enough variation in all of the species (corals) that that pool of people could draw off that I'd not get bored. As it is, these days it's pretty rare that I come across anything all that new.


I've been in this hobby for 10 years....I'm still seeing things available that haven't ever crossed my path before....Believe me when I say this....I do my homework...

Lets say ....If this was to take place 2 or 3 years ago....Who would have had all those fancy chalices at that point??:confused:

[Sokretys]

How would we replenish our cleanup crews?

[Greg Hiller]

Snails can be aquacultured. But for the most part, the thread was about coral collection being banned.

[Kiah]

I could be quite happy with the corals I have and don't feel the need to find the next new item. The enjoyment for me in this hobby is the never ending education of understanding the confined system as a mini-ecosystem with a bit of external help.

Aqua-cultured corals are, for the most part more tolerant of captive systems and hardy. I wonder if, over time (decades) new diseases would develop.

[Aquaman_68]

I could be quite happy with the corals I have and don't feel the need to find the next new item. The enjoyment for me in this hobby is the never ending education of understanding the confined system as a mini-ecosystem with a bit of external help.

Aqua-cultured corals are, for the most part more tolerant of captive systems and hardy. I wonder if, over time (decades) new diseases would develop.

anything is possible