A discussion of Immunity

[Paul B]

I actually cheated and originally posted this on other forums, but since I have not really posted anything on Boston Reef Society, I figured I would also put it here.

I have been thinking about this for seven or eight years and finally, through scientific research and my experimentation I think I have figured out something that may change the way we run aquariums. For many years I have been feeding live blackworms, live amphipods and live new born brine shrimp to my tank and I always assumed the excellent health of my fish was a result of that. My fish seem immune from just about everything including bacterial infections and parasites. Although live food seems to be the reason for their immunity, I think I found out the exact mechanism for the immunity. It's not so much that the food is live, but that the bacteria inside the guts of the food is also live. Many of our fish are quarantined for 72 days, then put in a sterile tank and fed things like freeze dried worms, pellets, flakes and frozen food. Almost all of that food is sterile although frozen food "may" have some living bacteria, albeit weak. Fish in the sea eat nothing but live food along with it's associated gut and skin bacteria. New reasearch indicates that a fishes immune system, while vastly different from ours still depends on the fish meeting an infectious agent to impart immunity to the animal. Our immune system is mainly concentrated in our bone marrow but fish have no bone marrow and instead produce antibodies in their kidney and spleen. The bacteria on the food the fish eat filters through the kidney which helps the immune system recognize a threat. The immune response of fish is to produce slime which completely covers the fish and the slime contains "activated macrophages"
Following are just "partial" quotes of this informative article that I have found which makes good reading especially to the many aquarists that don't believe fish can become immune from disease and parasites. I quoted some parts of the article that I thought were more suited to this post but it is incomplete and can be read in full if you Google the link starting with (ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 Maria Angeles
Ref: Copyright © 2012 María Ángeles Esteban. This is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote
Another interesting fact found in a recent issue of Scientific American By Ferris Jabr | September 12, 2012 |
States that zebra fish whose guts were rich in bacteria absorbed more fats from their food as compared to fish in a germ free envirnment which in turn increased the number of energy-rich fat bubbles stored within the fish's intestinal cells for later use.
I also discovered while researching is that fish fed a vaired diet actualy had less bacterial diversity in their gut than fish fed only one or two different types of food. I have always said that fish do not need a vaired diet, they need what they were designed to eat and nothing more. My fish are normally fed only three types of food. Live worms, frozen clams and frozen mysis. The smaller fish are only given live new born brine shrimp. I sometimes increase the diversity of their diet as an experiment but when that is over, they go back to their normal diet.
Coincidently in this months "Popular Science" (August 2015) there is an article about this very topic. The author states that the most germ free envirnment today is on the International Space Station. Everything is sterilized including the air. All the surfaces are coated with bacteria limiting coatings, even the water is treated with iodine and biocidal nano silver so the only bacteria prsent are the ones coming from the astronauts themselves. They can't open a window or send out for Pizza so there is no fresh influx of microbes to balance the ecosystem. Sounds like quarantining doesn't it? He also states that a loss of gut bacteria correlates with many diseases and could impede longer space travel. If we lose our gut bacteria, our immune system goes dormant.
In the real world bacteria, viruses and parasites evolved right along with other organisms that help keep each organism in check. They have their enemies and friends. When we mess with the system by using antibiotics or extended periods of quarantine, or remove living bacteria from their food, we are dooming the fish to a life where they are on the verge of getting a fatal disease.
This is also the reason so many diseases are contracted in hospitals, a place where great pains are taken to keep the place clean. They are clean, so the only bacteria present are from sick people with no other bacteria or viruses to counteract them. It is now thought that people using those hand sanitizers from very young are at a higher risk of becomming an allergic toddler.
Human babies born normally pick up Lactobacillus in the birth canal which helps them digest milk and lowers the gut's pH to the normal range. but babies born by C-section miss out and could be born with Staphlococcus and sometimes antibiotic resistant bacteria. (Rinku Patel Popular Science August 2015)
So after researching all of this I have come to the conclusion that quarantining fish for an extended amount of time is actually very bad for our fishes health. In my opinion, if we want to quarantine I would do it using drugs such as copper in the theory that doing so will kill any parasites present in about 10 days while keeping the immunity the fish intact. Then I would feed at least some live food every day not just for the vitamins that come from live food, but for the bacteria. I am not sure how long a fishes immunity lasts but in the sea, it was immune, or almost immune for it's entire life. When a fish is collected, stored, starved and shipped it is in a very weakened state and their immune system is hardly functioning so even though the immune response to parasites, viruses and bacteria is there. It isn't strong enough to protect the fish, but if we can get it out of stress, fed live bacteria laden food and in a stable envirnment as soon as possable, it will recover and sustain some of their immunity.
How many times do we read that a tank full of quarantined fish suddenly crashes and all the fish are lost to a parasite? It happens daily and all you have to do is go on any fish forum and search for it. Fish quarantined for extended amounts of time and fed sterile foods "have no immune system what so ever". I didn't make this up as you can read the articles I referenced or just Google "Fish Immunity" where you will find a plethora of new research which suggests that keeping fish sterile is the complete wrong thing to do. I rarely put references in my posts because I normally do my own research. But I realize I am not a fish doctor, researcher or marine biologist. What I am is an aquarist with immune fish. How do I know they are immune? I know because some of them have been in my tank for over 20 years, I add fish from many stores and even the sea. I can add fish with obvious parasites and in no case will anything else become infected. Many times during the year I add mud from the sea for the bacteria I always thought it was a good idea, now I know why. My fish get some live food every day and always have. I even think that the fish infected with parasites that I add strengthn the immune system so they never become infected. Of course we can't add parasite infected fish to a system that is not already immune and that is where the problem starts.

If you use a quarantine tank, please keep doing so.

This is all just my opinion of course so if you don't believe any of it you can go and have a nice glass of Merlot and watch Oprah. I think she is giving away Cadillac's to homeless cats.

This goes with it if anyone is interested. http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

 

[dz6t]

Welcome Paul, great to have you here.

 

[reefstarter]

makes perfect sense , and the same reason I don't use anti bacterial soaps , or worry about germs or anything . bring em on . After all aren't vacines based on exposing you to something in order for your imune system tobe able to develop a way to fight it ? thanks for the post !!!!

 

[thomb]

Great post.
The endless competition to survive, and resilience of creatures great and small is mind boggling when you think about it.

 

[Paul B]

Thank you dz6t (if that is your real name)
Reefstarter, I also don't use anti bacterial soaps. Silly idea unless a surgeon wants to make some holes in me. He should use it. But no one else.
Thomb, a lot of reef stuff is mind boggling. We just have to sort through the nonsense, rumors, innuendo's, suppositions, and things that we hear Supermodels say.

 

[nemodan]

Paul, great posting. I started to read it without paying attention to the author. When I arrived to the MUD addition immediately though "Paul B. Has been doing that for years, I need to find one of his posts mentioning that and, copy it here, as a proof there are others doing MUD addition". Then , after reading a few more lines I read "Oprah is....." . Immediately I went to check the author's name and it was you. You always like to write that about Oprah... LOL.

I am very happy that you have decided to stop by and give us a little of your incredible knowledge on fish and marine tanks.

I am pretty sure you will remember me. I posted several times in you "44 year tank thread ", at Reef Sanctuary. But it has been several months now I haven't visit your thread. I am sure there will be too much to catch up.

I hope family is doing well.

Thanks again for this scientific posting.

Daniel

 

[nemodan]

Now, going back to the topic of the thread. I have never quarantined any fish because most of the the things I have read, says that parasites can be dormant for years, like Ich. A stress factor can trigger it. If the fish infected with ich continue eating, many, like myself, feed more the tank, that reduces stress and, based in your posting, increase the immune system. I am using only frozen food, but there are always bacterias that will survive freezing temperatures. It's not like live food, as you mentioned.

Now it makes more sense why so many in the forums write "if you have ich, feed more your fish to make it stronger and do not quarantine him, ich is already in the tank" I wrote that many times. I did not invent it, I followed others. We are helping the weak inmune system, of the fish that has Ich to recover, and helping all the other fish in the tank by increasing the food. When all is gone I go back to my normal food regimen.

Daniel

Ps: As Paul B mentioned, I am not saying quarantine is bad. I am just saying I never quarantined any of my fish.

 

[Paul B]

Nemodan, I posted that immunity thread on 6 or 7 forums and had discussions on all of them and got yelled off one. My theories don't make me a lot of friends.

 

[reefstarter]

Neither did Einstein or davinci but ..... Don't let that go to your head lol

 

[nemodan]

Neither did Einstein or davinci but ..... Don't let that go to your head lol

Very well said !!

Forums, like this one, are for open discussions and learning, you know better than me that. I can agree or disagree with a theory and will express the "why". In the meantime we all learn, also who agrees or disagree.

Paul, I have been in this forum for some years now and I can risk to say that every thread had always good discussions at Boston Reefers .

I remember my thread concerning PETCO ocean water and phosphate levels. It had some heated postings, but the balance won at the end. I learned a lot from that discussion.

 

[Paul B]

I don't let it go to my head. There is not much in there as it is. I have plenty of theories and many of them didn't come from the box. Remember I started this way before computers. Just about the week salt water fish became available (in New York anyway)
My ideas formed through trial and mostly error because no one was in the hobby at the time. Virtually all the rest of the ideas came from the internet and I find that with the vast amount of information there, it is mostly wrong. That is why there are as many disease problems now as there was in the 70s 80s and 90s. There is no need for disease threads as fish should almost never get sick. If mine don't, no one's should as I am not the God of fish. I am just a bald, retired electrician with a fish tank.

 

[nemodan]

.....and with more than 44 years of experience.

 

[dz6t]

I will love to hear more of your theories.

 

[cilyjr]

so going back to our discussion about the frozen clam..
suggested was that the clam is a better food because its the whole clam complete with gut and anything it filtered through in its last few moments before harvest. I'm on board with this. that said, if we are feeding chopped clam from the store even that stuff from the seafood department which comes from a place like Nantucket Sound Seafood in gallon containers (you only see them in ice in the counter). they are chopping surf clams or quahogs, are the using the entire clam or removing the parts we would find beneficial (for sake of this discussion) to make a more palatable product for human consumption?

on a side note i know you gather a lot of your own live food while putt- putting around the sound. but I'm curious where to look. as it would be easy to do here in Rhode Island as well.

 

[gwdemos]

When I come home from an offshore trip, tuna, Mahi, little bits make their way to the tank. I know there are parasites especially in these pelagic species but Very small bits and not very often Fish seem to like the treat.


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[gwdemos]

Chris, hop down to seafreeze in galilee


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[cilyjr]

Greg when you feed these bits are they muscle tissue or guts? Paul suggests that the muscle is less beneficial then gut material.

 

[Paul B]

Cilyjr, here is some video of collecting amphipods. These were taken by my dive partner with a SCUBA diving camera so the sound is very low. This is the tide pools where I collect at low tide.

 

[Paul B]

There was a Doctor on TV this week who must have read this thread (yeah right) because he was talking about eating dirt to enhance your immunity and why so many people get sick now. Of course I related this to fish.

I read everything this man wrote then googled "Eat Dirt" and found a wealth of information on why eating dirt is good for you. No, don't go out and eat dirt, read the article first. But what he says and what I read on a few more places on the subject.

Also this from the American Medical Association a couple of months ago:



“Countless studies have found children who spend recess time in a green environment, rather than on cement or blacktop, perform better on tests in the classroom, have reduced symptoms of ADHD and stress, and lower risk of obesity,” she says. “They’re also more likely to have perfect vision than those who spend most of their time indoors.”

- See more at: http://www.lifescript.com/health/ce...aner_bill_of_health.aspx#sthash.WOkFbtIv.dpuf





There are data that say our immune system and bodies in general, function best when exposed to not only microbes, or organisms, but also to diversity too. That has to come not only from a diverse diet, but also the environment. Quite simply, our kids need to go out and play in the dirt.





For example, regular use of bleach is associated with more – not fewer – infections in kids, according to a 2015 study published in Occupational & Environmental Medicine. “Children aren’t as healthy as they once were or as they could be,” she says. “I’ve observed more incidences of chronic illness and health issues like allergies, diabetes and neuropsychiatric issues.” - See more at: http://www.lifescript.com/health/ce...aner_bill_of_health.aspx#sthash.WOkFbtIv.dpuf "





The Data goes on and on. I feel and have always felt that we keep our tanks much to clean and our fish food much to sterile. New research suggests this and you can find it all over the place.

I believe it because I am an outdoor kind of a guy and always have been. I never believed you have to wash your hands every time you eat unless you just got off the New York City Subway system because that is not dirt. That is bubonic plague, typhoid, diphtheria and any number of social diseases, but if you were just working in the garden or you just helped a Supermodel jump start her car, those germs won't hurt you. (unless the Supermodel just got off the subway and that is not likely to happen because Supermodels would never ride in a subway)

As I have said numerous times feeding live worms and other foods that have not been sterilized is the reason my fish are immune from (so far) everything. It is the "dirt" and associated bacteria and parasites that are the secret.

I feel we should keep our fish away from foods that claim that they are free from parasites and harmful organisms.

 

[Docstach]

Paul, good to see you actively posting here. I have always found your posts interesting. In general, I agree with what you are saying and I think exposure to a diversity of microoganisms is a good thing (for humans and likely fish). However, I also think some balance needs to be reached. Even someone with the most robust immune system can get sick (and die) from exposure to the wrong organism. I like the idea of live foods and other marine substances/mud, I don't think I would ever knowingly expose a healthy aquarium (or myself) to a truly harmful organism.