Alk swings with all for reef

new2saltyfish

new2saltyfish

Non-member
An issue i seem to be having in my 5 gallon reef is alk swings. Currently running all for reef on a kamoer x1 doser. Calcium seems to be stable at 440, mag 1380c but alk will swing from 8.2 after manual dose to 6.7 by the end of the week. Currently dosing 5ml per day divided into 12 times. Does this seem off? When I leave my apartment, I do get a notification that states kamoer x1 bluetooth disconnected. When I called coralvue they stated that that is because my phone is away from the pump but it should still be working. I feel like that’s a lot of ml of all for reef for 4 gallons water volume. I know this is approaching the "limit" of all for reef according to the bottle for the size of my tank But after looking online some people run 2-3x their limit without issue. I use Red Sea blue bucket salt and keep my salinity at 1.026. Tested my remade water last night and the dkh came in at 8.0 right on the money like it's supposed to be at that salinity. Goal would be to keep dkh stable at 8 all week so it is the same as my water for changes. Any thoughts? Currently have some SPS frags, torches, hammers, and a fair amount of Zoanthids. The system does have an auto-top off setup and it uses maybe 3-400ml per day top off water which is plain ro/di
 
new2saltyfish said:
An issue i seem to be having in my 5 gallon reef is alk swings. Currently running all for reef on a kamoer x1 doser. Calcium seems to be stable at 440, mag 1380c but alk will swing from 8.2 after manual dose to 6.7 by the end of the week. Currently dosing 5ml per day divided into 12 times. Does this seem off? When I leave my apartment, I do get a notification that states kamoer x1 bluetooth disconnected. When I called coralvue they stated that that is because my phone is away from the pump but it should still be working. I feel like that’s a lot of ml of all for reef for 4 gallons water volume. I know this is approaching the "limit" of all for reef according to the bottle for the size of my tank But after looking online some people run 2-3x their limit without issue. I use Red Sea blue bucket salt and keep my salinity at 1.026. Tested my remade water last night and the dkh came in at 8.0 right on the money like it's supposed to be at that salinity. Goal would be to keep dkh stable at 8 all week so it is the same as my water for changes. Any thoughts? Currently have some SPS frags, torches, hammers, and a fair amount of Zoanthids. The system does have an auto-top off setup and it uses maybe 3-400ml per day top off water which is plain ro/di
Click to expand...
 
My understanding is that AFR works a bit differently than something like 2-part. AFR doses calcium and alk indirectly and relies on some bacteria to eventually convert it. Because of this, dosing does not have an immediate effect. I'd be hesitant to dose more than the manufacturer recommends as I'd question if the reaction is occuring as it should if there is seemingly limited effect.

I'd be interested in Dong's @dz6t thoughts on this.
 
Skmaiden said:
My understanding is that AFR works a bit differently than something like 2-part. AFR doses calcium and alk indirectly and relies on some bacteria to eventually convert it. Because of this, dosing does not have an immediate effect. I'd be hesitant to dose more than the manufacturer recommends as I'd question if the reaction is occuring as it should if there is seemingly limited effect.

I'd be interested in Dong's @dz6t thoughts on this.
Click to expand...
AFR does exactly what you said.
The delay affect for alkalinity can be from hours to 2 days, Tropic Marin also mentioned this in several of their seminars.
On the other hand, traditional two part dosing adds Calcium and alkalinity immediately.
 
For newer reef tanks, due to low population of certain bacteria that needed to convert AFR to Alkalinity, you will see alkalinity does not rise or maintain at the desired level. In this situation, two part dosing is needed. AFR is calcium formate, the formate part is what converted to alkalinity by certain bacteria. When those bacteria is at low level, formate is just sitting in the water.
AFR is also a way of carbon dosing, it can lower oxygen level and promote bacteria growth. If a tank dose not equip with an effective protein skimmer, it can cause problems for fish and coral.
 
Any idea how long it would take for the correct build up of bacteria to occur to where the AFR would actually work? The tank is roughly 6 months old but I did bring in a small piece of rock from an established 7 year old tank. Sounds like maybe I have to make the switch to a 2 part dosing system. I do have a reef glass protein skimmer on the tank.
 
Here is a good summary of how alk can be affected on R2R:

www.reef2reef.com

The Ways Alkalinity can Accumulate in a Reef Tank

"Why is my alkalinity rising?" is a seemingly simple question that consistently pops up in the chemistry section of Reef2Reef. However, it is a complex question since there are numerous ways alkalinity can accumulate - some ways one may least expect. The consensus of an alkalinity range in...
www.reef2reef.com www.reef2reef.com


As for how long it can take to build up a sufficient bioload of bacteria to properly utilize AFR....it depends. Nothing good ever comes fast in reefing.

How porous your live rocks are, how deep your sand bed is, your flow, the amount of live stock in the tank and how much you feed will all contribute to how large a population of nitrifying bacteria you have in your tank.
 
So, my plan as of now is to shut off the all for reef, order the BRS starter kit 2 part dosing with an extra kamoer x1 pump. I'll figure out my loses with the Alk/Ca and dose accordingly with the 2 pumps, check mag once/month and dose that once/month. Did purchase the microbacter7 and will also try to dose that once/week for a month and see if that helps any. Does this seem like a good plan?

Pretty bummed I wasted $50 on all for reef with no results.
 
It is hard to judge the right kind of bacteria level as there is no test kit for it. I have seen reef tanks that are over a year old still can not handle AFR. My take is to stick with 2 parts dosing and call it a day.
On a side note, the bacteria converts AFR into carbon dioxide, then the high pH in the water convert carbon dioxide into bicarbonate, which is the right chemical as alkalinity for coral to consume. That means in theory, you need to watch the pH so that it won’t drop below acceptable value. The major concern for me is the unconsumed formate that floating around which is not good for coral and fish.
There is another one part dosing method that use calcium acetate, it has the similar effect of AFR, but with unconsumed acetate (vinegar) floating around is not a concern.
 
I think i’m just going to stick with the 2 part and once stable will think about trace elements ( which may just be replaced with weekly 1 gallon water changes when my volume is only about 4 gallons).
 
When i had a 7 gallon tank i would mix up a 5 gallon bucket and let it mix. I had 2 one gallon jugs that i got on amazon but you could use clean milk jugs (i didnt like the lack of rigidity) and would siphon out 1 gallon of fresh mixed from my station and then go to my tank with the empty and full jug. Id do that a couple times a week and it would keep my parameters very stable and the nutrients low. This menthod is very easy when the water is mixed and ready and all you have to do is get the hose and turn off a pump. Id be very hesitant to add trace elements in a tiny tank that can over saturate with these elements rapidly. There are salts (TMpro) that have many of the trace elements already and in my opinion it would take an extended amount of time to deplete the reserves of these trace elements. I started do this method when i had some issues with cyano in my nano and needed to do water changes and siphon...noticed the immediate change in response to the tank from the 2-3 WCs a week and just kept it up because it was literally just 5-10 mins of time that i set on my iphone as a reminder.
 
I was doing 2 gallon water changes twice a week but I plan to cut them to 1 gallon twice per week. I use Red Sea blue bucket at the moment; liked that the alk is 8 rather than 12 like the pro salt. I am also having a phosphate issue (last value was .12) so going to change my food to frozen, just put in some cheri-pure elite, and planning on a small macro-algae reactor in the near future.
 
Frozen food will impact your phosphate level a lot more than dry food. You can feed less dry food.
I heard from a member that a fish store told him that frozen food had no phosphate, that really blow my mind. all food has phosphate in it, a lot of it, otherwise it is not food.
 
At 0.12 ppm, you don’t have a phosphate issue, actually the level is pretty good.
 
with frequent water changes dosing in a small tank is negligible IME.

frozen food can be drained prior to feeding.
 
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