First Dowflake, now Magnesium...too cool - GROUP BUY FOR NOV MEETING

Greg Hiller · 10-16-2004, 04:19 PM

This is an UNOFFICIAL group buy, meaning it has nothing to do with the BRS or it's sponsors, I set it up myself.

Group buy on Magnesium Chloride

WHY DO YOU NEED IT?:

Over time tanks can slowly become depleted in their magnesium levels. Certain corals, and coralline algae remove magnesium from the water quickly. The easiest way to bring the magnesium level back in many tanks is just to do more water changes. For very large tanks the amount of water changed to get back in balance could be very large. Also, some artificial salt mixes tend to be a bit low in magnesium. Natural seawater concentrations of magnesium are around 1350 ppm. IME, it's not good to allow the level in tank to drop below 1200 or so. In a frag tank I once had it drop to 1000 ppm, and a lot of things were looking very ill. Once corrected things started looking better in one day. More info on magnesium and it's role in a reef tank can be found here: Magnesium in Reef Aquaria
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm

WHERE YOU COULD GET IT:

You could purchase B-ionic magnesium (one of the least expensive Magnesium supplements), but for a large tank this runs into big money fast (the cost of the supplement I'm describing below is about 1/30th of B-ionic Magnesium).

You could also use Epsom salts, the problem with this is that Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate heptahydrate, which means you are adding a lot more sulfate to the water than you should be (more on this later), and over time your tank may get a bit out of 'whack'. If you are using Randy-HF's two part calcium/alkalinity supplement this is less of a concern due to the formulation of the supplement, but even then, over time the sulfate in your tank will become elevated over time if you only use magnesium sulfate.

You could make a magnesium supplement yourself. I can show you how to do it. Craig Bingman wrote an article about how to do it years ago. A Homemade Magnesium Supplement
http://web.archive.org/web/200306242...io/default.asp

The formula below creates a magnesium supplement that does not significantly create an imbalance in any other anions in your tank's water. The anions in saltwater are chiefly chloride (Cl-) and sulfate (SO4-2). Bromine is also in there as an anion, but it's slow low that for many years salt manufacturers never even bothered to add it to their mixes, so leaving it out of this supplement is not a big deal at all. The basic formula is:

664 grams MgCl2.6H2O
113 grams MgSO4.7H2O (Epsom salts, from the drug store costs $1.99 for 3 lbs)
plus enough DI water to make 1 gallon.

or if you want to do it on a larger scale, using pounds to weigh stuff out:

1.5 lbs MgCl2.6H2O
0.25 lbs MgSO4.7H2O (Epsom salts)
plus enough DI water to make 5 gallons
you don't need to be super accurate on the weighing.

Adding this at the rate of about 10 ml/gallon of tank volume (in a stream of water where it will get mixed into the tank quickly) will increase the magnesium level in your tank by about 100 ppm. It's never a good idea to make changes too fast to a tank's water chemistry, so if your tank is low in magnesium by more than 100 ppm I'd still only add 10ml/gallon/day until you are back around 1250-1350 ppm. So, for instance, if your 100 gallon tank were 300 ppm low in magnesium, you'd need about 3 liters, or almost 1 gallon of this solution to get back into the proper range on magnesium.

To dose magnesium correctly you really need to measure it with a decent test kit. I've found the Salivert kit for magnesium to be pretty good and reasonably priced, FWIW.

BUT NOW I NEED THIS MgCl2.H2HO STUFF, WHERE WOULD I GET THAT?!?:

I have contacted a major supplier of high grade magnesium chloride, that apparently supplies the same grade of magnesium chloride to about 70% of the artificial salt mix manufacturers. I will post a copy of the typical purity analysis that comes from this grade of magnesium chloride at the bottom of this message. I posted and discussed the contaminant levels many months ago on Randy H-F's chemistry forum on Reef Central, and he was confident that it was a high quality material suitable for the purpose of increasing magnesium in a reef tank. The manufacturer has agreed to ship directly to our club (or wherever we want) 48 - 50 lb bags of this material. This is the minimum order direct from the manufacturer. The final DELIVERED price will be $16 per 50 lb bag. Although this is high quality magnesium chloride, at this price it is about the same as ice melt magnesium chloride, or rock salt, etc. It is perfectly acceptable to be used as an ice melter, and will melt ice/snow better than standard rock salt because magnesium chloride will work down to -15 F. So, buy yourself a bag and use any extra to melt the ice on your driveway that you know is coming!

Magnesium chloride hexahydrate is very hydroscopic (or is it hygroscopic?)...anyhow, it attracts water, so if you purchase a bag you should plan to transfer it to an sealed container of some sort within a few weeks (I use old Instant Ocean buckets for this). As it attracts water it can kind of turn into a solid block of salt, but it is still fine to use, it's just a pain to chip it out! It never really goes, or could go 'bad'. It is a very stable chemical.

So, I'm trying to round up enough folks that would be interested in a bag or two or three of this stuff. You could give it away to your relatives for ice melt for Christmas!!! I already have several people that are interested in a bag (Randy H-F and many others), but I'm a long way from using up 48 bags. My plan is to have this stuff delivered to the Boston area in time for distribution at the November meeting north of Taunton. If you are interested please try and take a full bag and give the extra away to someone for ice melt, or use it yourself.

Now is your chance to get in on this. A lot of people still ask me about how they can get some of the calcium oxide (bulk quicklime) that we had a group buy on years ago, don't come asking me 6 months from now for magnesium chloride, this is a one time buy! I'm not taking orders for partial bags.

I have already checked with several of our local sponsors, none are interested in organizing this (though a few are interested in a bag or two), it is not a normal aquarium product anyhow, this is DIY territory.

Also, please remember, I'm NOT making any money on this. I need the stuff myself (remember? I'm a cheap bas#@$#), and am organizing this group buy for club members, so please don't make it difficult for me.

SO THE DETAILS AGAIN:

- $16 for a 50# bag - the extra you can use to melt ice (no partial bags)
- available at the November Taunton meeting, or picked up someone in the Boston area to be determined
- email me DIRECT at maggroupbuy @ greghiller.com if you want a bag (you can post below, but I will not save any for you unless you email me at that address)
- in the email please give 1. Your REAL name, 2. How many bags you want

Additional questions I'll be glad to try and answer below. I'll try and get Randy H-F to follow this thread as well. There is a thread on Randy's forum on RC which discusses the search for an inexpensive magnesium supplement. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=2

Trace Element Content of Dead Sea Works
Magnesium Chloride

Element Typical(ppm) Maximum(ppm)

Mg 115000(11.5%) 125000 (12.5%)
Ca 7000 8000
Br 5000 8000
K 2500 3500
S(SO42-) 180 200
Sr 120 150
B 20 30
Li 10 15
N* 4 5
Si 9 15
Fe 3 10
P 2 3
Mn 2 3
Al 1 3
Ba 1 2
Co <1
Cr <1
Cu <1
F <1
Mo <1
Ni <1
Se <1
V <1
Zn <1
As <0.1
Hg <0.1
Pb <0.1
Cd <0.01
I n.a
Rb n.a

Greg Hiller · 10-16-2004, 05:18 PM

Oh, and BTW

If you are using Randy's two (or three part if you include the magnesium part) part calcium and alkalinity supplement, you can correct the minor imbalances in his magnesium supplement by using the magnesium chloride that we will be purchasing. In that case you would want to prep your magnesium supplement to be used with Randy's two part calcium and alkalinity supplement using the following formula:

865 grams MgSO4.7H20 (Epsom salts)
730 grams MgCl2.6H20
plus water to a total volume of 1 gallon

This was discussed in Randy's forum also:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=357172

jacko · 10-16-2004, 09:21 PM

this is sweeeeeeet
thanks greg, I'll email you to sign myself up for a bag !

(Go Sox)

Scuba_Dave · 10-17-2004, 01:26 AM

Great, now I need a magnesium test kit
Group buy on test kits too!!

SO how much of this stufff do you go thru?
I have ~240g between Tank, sump & frag tank
Plus I have another tank somewhere on the horizon
Thanx

NateHanson · 10-17-2004, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacko

this is sweeeeeeet

Only a biochemist could get this excited over a 50# bag of salt.

Ray · 10-17-2004, 07:10 AM

Greg I sent you an email, I am in for 2 bags
thanks

jacko · 10-17-2004, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NateHanson

Only a biochemist could get this excited over a 50# bag of salt.

HaHaHa
seriously.
Nate you going to make it for some brewing and Pats ?

Greg Hiller · 10-17-2004, 03:41 PM

I've replied to all emails I've received thus far. Looks like we are reaching the 1/2 way point on the 48 bags.

NateHanson · 10-18-2004, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacko

HaHaHa
seriously.
Nate you going to make it for some brewing and Pats ?

Sorry Jack, didn't happen. I was working on our skimmers with Ryan (Piscevore), and then I took Lily to the NEAquarium to see the "fiffees".

How'd it go?

howman · 10-18-2004, 11:59 AM

greg,
i'll take a bag....or if anybody wants to share 1, as 50 pounds is a lot.....

howard mandelcorn

Armando · 10-18-2004, 12:35 PM

howman wanna split?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 10-18-2004, 04:17 PM

50 pounds contains 5.75 pounds of magnesium.

100 gallons of seawater contains about a pound of magnesium. So 5.75 pounds Mg++ will bring a 90 gallon tank from zero to NSW levels almost 6 times, or from 1000 ppm to 1300 ppm 25 times.

It will last forever, as long as you don't leave it open to suck up water in a high humidity area (where it might liquify, and still be good, but be a mess).

At $16, it seems hard to beat.

Sign me up for 2 bags, Greg. We signed with the architect this weekend, so the new big tank is very nearly certain.

Greg Hiller · 10-20-2004, 11:25 AM

Bump...I need some more people to sign up for a bag. Makes for a great Xmas present, a 50# bag of salt to melt the ice with. You know your neighbors will love you if you get them a bag.

newreefer03 · 10-20-2004, 02:58 PM

Howman, I'd be interested in splitting a bag w/ you and Armando.

Greg Hiller · 10-20-2004, 04:38 PM

Please guys, if at all possible help us out by purchasing a whole bag, I don't think the $16 is going to break anyone. Give the extra away to your mother-in-law. We need to have enough people on board so that I don't have to sit on 20 bags for the next 3 years. I'm fronting all the money for this group buy, the order has been placed.

Scuba_Dave · 10-20-2004, 04:48 PM

Greg, if you don't sell them all, I will take a 2nd bag

seasno · 10-20-2004, 08:23 PM

Greg...I sent you an email for 2 bags, but had trouble with the address you posted...sent it to corals@greghiller.com instead.

Craig

seasno · 10-20-2004, 08:26 PM

Duh...Cut and pasted the address off of your post...in looking at it...it was probably the space that caused the issue.....

MickyB · 10-20-2004, 09:09 PM

Greg, You have me down for 4 Bags

dima96 · 10-20-2004, 09:33 PM

greg emailed you about a bag

10-16-2004, 04:19 PM	#1
Greg Hiller BRS Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Wakefield Posts: 11,331 iTrader: (32)	First Dowflake, now Magnesium...too cool - GROUP BUY FOR NOV MEETING This is an UNOFFICIAL group buy, meaning it has nothing to do with the BRS or it's sponsors, I set it up myself. Group buy on Magnesium Chloride WHY DO YOU NEED IT?: Over time tanks can slowly become depleted in their magnesium levels. Certain corals, and coralline algae remove magnesium from the water quickly. The easiest way to bring the magnesium level back in many tanks is just to do more water changes. For very large tanks the amount of water changed to get back in balance could be very large. Also, some artificial salt mixes tend to be a bit low in magnesium. Natural seawater concentrations of magnesium are around 1350 ppm. IME, it's not good to allow the level in tank to drop below 1200 or so. In a frag tank I once had it drop to 1000 ppm, and a lot of things were looking very ill. Once corrected things started looking better in one day. More info on magnesium and it's role in a reef tank can be found here: Magnesium in Reef Aquaria http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm WHERE YOU COULD GET IT: You could purchase B-ionic magnesium (one of the least expensive Magnesium supplements), but for a large tank this runs into big money fast (the cost of the supplement I'm describing below is about 1/30th of B-ionic Magnesium). You could also use Epsom salts, the problem with this is that Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate heptahydrate, which means you are adding a lot more sulfate to the water than you should be (more on this later), and over time your tank may get a bit out of 'whack'. If you are using Randy-HF's two part calcium/alkalinity supplement this is less of a concern due to the formulation of the supplement, but even then, over time the sulfate in your tank will become elevated over time if you only use magnesium sulfate. You could make a magnesium supplement yourself. I can show you how to do it. Craig Bingman wrote an article about how to do it years ago. A Homemade Magnesium Supplement http://web.archive.org/web/200306242...io/default.asp The formula below creates a magnesium supplement that does not significantly create an imbalance in any other anions in your tank's water. The anions in saltwater are chiefly chloride (Cl-) and sulfate (SO4-2). Bromine is also in there as an anion, but it's slow low that for many years salt manufacturers never even bothered to add it to their mixes, so leaving it out of this supplement is not a big deal at all. The basic formula is: 664 grams MgCl2.6H2O 113 grams MgSO4.7H2O (Epsom salts, from the drug store costs $1.99 for 3 lbs) plus enough DI water to make 1 gallon. or if you want to do it on a larger scale, using pounds to weigh stuff out: 1.5 lbs MgCl2.6H2O 0.25 lbs MgSO4.7H2O (Epsom salts) plus enough DI water to make 5 gallons you don't need to be super accurate on the weighing. Adding this at the rate of about 10 ml/gallon of tank volume (in a stream of water where it will get mixed into the tank quickly) will increase the magnesium level in your tank by about 100 ppm. It's never a good idea to make changes too fast to a tank's water chemistry, so if your tank is low in magnesium by more than 100 ppm I'd still only add 10ml/gallon/day until you are back around 1250-1350 ppm. So, for instance, if your 100 gallon tank were 300 ppm low in magnesium, you'd need about 3 liters, or almost 1 gallon of this solution to get back into the proper range on magnesium. To dose magnesium correctly you really need to measure it with a decent test kit. I've found the Salivert kit for magnesium to be pretty good and reasonably priced, FWIW. BUT NOW I NEED THIS MgCl2.H2HO STUFF, WHERE WOULD I GET THAT?!?: I have contacted a major supplier of high grade magnesium chloride, that apparently supplies the same grade of magnesium chloride to about 70% of the artificial salt mix manufacturers. I will post a copy of the typical purity analysis that comes from this grade of magnesium chloride at the bottom of this message. I posted and discussed the contaminant levels many months ago on Randy H-F's chemistry forum on Reef Central, and he was confident that it was a high quality material suitable for the purpose of increasing magnesium in a reef tank. The manufacturer has agreed to ship directly to our club (or wherever we want) 48 - 50 lb bags of this material. This is the minimum order direct from the manufacturer. The final DELIVERED price will be $16 per 50 lb bag. Although this is high quality magnesium chloride, at this price it is about the same as ice melt magnesium chloride, or rock salt, etc. It is perfectly acceptable to be used as an ice melter, and will melt ice/snow better than standard rock salt because magnesium chloride will work down to -15 F. So, buy yourself a bag and use any extra to melt the ice on your driveway that you know is coming! Magnesium chloride hexahydrate is very hydroscopic (or is it hygroscopic?)...anyhow, it attracts water, so if you purchase a bag you should plan to transfer it to an sealed container of some sort within a few weeks (I use old Instant Ocean buckets for this). As it attracts water it can kind of turn into a solid block of salt, but it is still fine to use, it's just a pain to chip it out! It never really goes, or could go 'bad'. It is a very stable chemical. So, I'm trying to round up enough folks that would be interested in a bag or two or three of this stuff. You could give it away to your relatives for ice melt for Christmas!!! I already have several people that are interested in a bag (Randy H-F and many others), but I'm a long way from using up 48 bags. My plan is to have this stuff delivered to the Boston area in time for distribution at the November meeting north of Taunton. If you are interested please try and take a full bag and give the extra away to someone for ice melt, or use it yourself. Now is your chance to get in on this. A lot of people still ask me about how they can get some of the calcium oxide (bulk quicklime) that we had a group buy on years ago, don't come asking me 6 months from now for magnesium chloride, this is a one time buy! I'm not taking orders for partial bags. I have already checked with several of our local sponsors, none are interested in organizing this (though a few are interested in a bag or two), it is not a normal aquarium product anyhow, this is DIY territory. Also, please remember, I'm NOT making any money on this. I need the stuff myself (remember? I'm a cheap bas#@$#), and am organizing this group buy for club members, so please don't make it difficult for me. SO THE DETAILS AGAIN: - $16 for a 50# bag - the extra you can use to melt ice (no partial bags) - available at the November Taunton meeting, or picked up someone in the Boston area to be determined - email me DIRECT at maggroupbuy @ greghiller.com if you want a bag (you can post below, but I will not save any for you unless you email me at that address) - in the email please give 1. Your REAL name, 2. How many bags you want Additional questions I'll be glad to try and answer below. I'll try and get Randy H-F to follow this thread as well. There is a thread on Randy's forum on RC which discusses the search for an inexpensive magnesium supplement. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=2 Trace Element Content of Dead Sea Works Magnesium Chloride Element Typical(ppm) Maximum(ppm) Mg 115000(11.5%) 125000 (12.5%) Ca 7000 8000 Br 5000 8000 K 2500 3500 S(SO42-) 180 200 Sr 120 150 B 20 30 Li 10 15 N* 4 5 Si 9 15 Fe 3 10 P 2 3 Mn 2 3 Al 1 3 Ba 1 2 Co <1 Cr <1 Cu <1 F <1 Mo <1 Ni <1 Se <1 V <1 Zn <1 As <0.1 Hg <0.1 Pb <0.1 Cd <0.01 I n.a Rb n.a __________________ BRS moderator and former president. Lighten up 'it's just a freakin' fish club' - immortal words of the BRS sage Mike W.

10-16-2004, 05:18 PM	#2
Greg Hiller BRS Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Wakefield Posts: 11,331 iTrader: (32)	Oh, and BTW If you are using Randy's two (or three part if you include the magnesium part) part calcium and alkalinity supplement, you can correct the minor imbalances in his magnesium supplement by using the magnesium chloride that we will be purchasing. In that case you would want to prep your magnesium supplement to be used with Randy's two part calcium and alkalinity supplement using the following formula: 865 grams MgSO4.7H20 (Epsom salts) 730 grams MgCl2.6H20 plus water to a total volume of 1 gallon This was discussed in Randy's forum also: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=357172 __________________ BRS moderator and former president. Lighten up 'it's just a freakin' fish club' - immortal words of the BRS sage Mike W.

10-17-2004, 01:26 AM	#4
Scuba_Dave Broken Rib Builder Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: On a higher plain, Rockland MA Posts: 8,879 iTrader: (0)	Great, now I need a magnesium test kit Group buy on test kits too!! SO how much of this stufff do you go thru? I have ~240g between Tank, sump & frag tank Plus I have another tank somewhere on the horizon Thanx __________________ 125g, 3x250w PFO HQI, 75g fuge/frag, 180g to replace 125g soon 125g WILL make a nice frag tank 325g Tank is HERE!! Maybe a bigger tank....hmmmm? PM to me = Public Message Usually NOT online M-F until 6pm at night Lighten up 'it's just a freakin' fish club' - immortal words of the BRS sage Mike W usual BRS disclaimer: This was not intended for or directed to anyone on this board or meant to offend anyone **ps, please ignore this signature if it offends you

10-17-2004, 07:10 AM	#6
Ray frrrrunkis Join Date: May 2004 Location: Peabody Posts: 5,532 iTrader: (27)	Greg I sent you an email, I am in for 2 bags thanks __________________ currently tankless for now but looking for the next one

10-17-2004, 03:41 PM	#8
Greg Hiller BRS Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Wakefield Posts: 11,331 iTrader: (32)	I've replied to all emails I've received thus far. Looks like we are reaching the 1/2 way point on the 48 bags. __________________ BRS moderator and former president. Lighten up 'it's just a freakin' fish club' - immortal words of the BRS sage Mike W.

10-16-2004, 09:21 PM	#3
jacko Coral Curator Join Date: May 2004 Location: brookline, nh Posts: 318 iTrader: (0)	this is sweeeeeeet thanks greg, I'll email you to sign myself up for a bag ! (Go Sox)

10-18-2004, 11:59 AM	#10
howman Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: newton, ma Posts: 236 iTrader: (1)	greg, i'll take a bag....or if anybody wants to share 1, as 50 pounds is a lot..... howard mandelcorn

10-18-2004, 12:35 PM	#11
Armando v 4.0 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 6,116 iTrader: (0)	howman wanna split? __________________ "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert Einstein

10-18-2004, 04:17 PM	#12
Randy Holmes-Farley Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Arlington, MA Posts: 481 iTrader: (0)	50 pounds contains 5.75 pounds of magnesium. 100 gallons of seawater contains about a pound of magnesium. So 5.75 pounds Mg++ will bring a 90 gallon tank from zero to NSW levels almost 6 times, or from 1000 ppm to 1300 ppm 25 times. It will last forever, as long as you don't leave it open to suck up water in a high humidity area (where it might liquify, and still be good, but be a mess). At $16, it seems hard to beat. Sign me up for 2 bags, Greg. We signed with the architect this weekend, so the new big tank is very nearly certain. __________________ Randy

10-20-2004, 11:25 AM	#13
Greg Hiller BRS Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Wakefield Posts: 11,331 iTrader: (32)	Bump...I need some more people to sign up for a bag. Makes for a great Xmas present, a 50# bag of salt to melt the ice with. You know your neighbors will love you if you get them a bag. __________________ BRS moderator and former president. Lighten up 'it's just a freakin' fish club' - immortal words of the BRS sage Mike W.

10-20-2004, 02:58 PM	#14
newreefer03 Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Newton, MA Posts: 634 iTrader: (5)	Howman, I'd be interested in splitting a bag w/ you and Armando. __________________ Dennis

10-20-2004, 04:38 PM	#15
Greg Hiller BRS Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Wakefield Posts: 11,331 iTrader: (32)	Please guys, if at all possible help us out by purchasing a whole bag, I don't think the $16 is going to break anyone. Give the extra away to your mother-in-law. We need to have enough people on board so that I don't have to sit on 20 bags for the next 3 years. I'm fronting all the money for this group buy, the order has been placed. __________________ BRS moderator and former president. Lighten up 'it's just a freakin' fish club' - immortal words of the BRS sage Mike W.

10-20-2004, 04:48 PM	#16
Scuba_Dave Broken Rib Builder Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: On a higher plain, Rockland MA Posts: 8,879 iTrader: (0)	Greg, if you don't sell them all, I will take a 2nd bag __________________ 125g, 3x250w PFO HQI, 75g fuge/frag, 180g to replace 125g soon 125g WILL make a nice frag tank 325g Tank is HERE!! Maybe a bigger tank....hmmmm? PM to me = Public Message Usually NOT online M-F until 6pm at night Lighten up 'it's just a freakin' fish club' - immortal words of the BRS sage Mike W usual BRS disclaimer: This was not intended for or directed to anyone on this board or meant to offend anyone **ps, please ignore this signature if it offends you

10-20-2004, 08:23 PM	#17
seasno A.K.A. Craig Snow Join Date: May 2004 Location: Meredith, NH Posts: 317 iTrader: (0)	Greg...I sent you an email for 2 bags, but had trouble with the address you posted...sent it to corals@greghiller.com instead. Craig Last edited by seasno; 10-20-2004 at 08:25 PM.

10-20-2004, 08:26 PM	#18
seasno A.K.A. Craig Snow Join Date: May 2004 Location: Meredith, NH Posts: 317 iTrader: (0)	Duh...Cut and pasted the address off of your post...in looking at it...it was probably the space that caused the issue.....

10-20-2004, 09:09 PM	#19
MickyB Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tyngsboro Posts: 316 iTrader: (0)	Greg, You have me down for 4 Bags

10-20-2004, 09:33 PM	#20
dima96 high light and high flow Join Date: May 2004 Location: orlando fla Posts: 242 iTrader: (0)	greg emailed you about a bag