LFS vs. Online discussion split from FosterSmith Poll

[RichConley]

For you online shoppers,
What happens when you receive a fish with Ich shipping stress etc,,, You all have a QT set up and practice a strict inspection and isolation period right?
If not what do you do? Risk it and just tank him? Destroy him?

No, you call live aquaria and they give you a refund. Simple as that. They'll refund if the fish has any health concerns, not just because its dead.


And Marc, what happens when the same thing happens with an LFS? Nothing, they offer no guarantees and no refunds on saltwater fish.

 

[RichConley]

Matt, your entire statement is based on the premise that the LFS gives some value that is lacking in online stores. Usually what is stated is "good advice, livestock guarantees, willing to hold fish," Well, the LFSs dont do most of those things.

and as far as good advice, I stopped taking advice from most of the LFS when someone tried to explain to me that the little yellow spots on that acro were good for the coral.

I like most of the LFSs, but c'mon, theres a reason the internet retailers are doing so well: The LFS arent offering enough added value to offset the difference in price. Its not just that people are cheap, like some of the LFS owners seem to think, its just that they arent offering enough to justify that extra cost.


Like the skimmer I bought recently, for $200 online. I would have gone to around $275 just to buy local and help out, but the closest they could offer was roughly $500. I'm sorry, but I'm not throwing away $300 for some mystical "help out the little guy" subsidy.


I'd say in that case, buying local gives me maybe $50-75 worth of extra value, by being able to harass someone if somethign goes wrong, but $300? Not a chance.

You dont have to compete on price, you have to compete on value.

 

[Buzzard]

I think it's best to respect where someone patrons and who they choose to support. Purchasing behavior is a personal decision that is based upon numerous factors that are not always rational.

For me, I purchase all livestock from LFS but will from time to time buy dry goods online. I frequent my LFS for some of the reasons stated and for others as well. I believe that my reef tank is, and will in the future be, better because of LFS. I think it?s good to encourage LFS support and have no issues with using the message board to drum up support for the good LFS.


That said, part of RichConnoly?s post that does not ring true. RichConnoly?s post reads:

?have never seen anything in Aquarium Gallery (and I love the store) that isnt significantly more expensive than their competitors.?


I routinely see things less expensive at Aquarium Gallery when compared to Live Aquaria. I just linked to Live Aquaria?s Diver?s Den?. here are a few examples - off the top of my head - where AG is less expensive (I was at AG 2 weeks ago) ?



Dwarf Yellow Moray Eel.
LA $369
AG $300 (Plus they were offering 20% the weekend I went)

Helfrichi Firefish
LA $199.99
AG $180.00

Line Spot Flasher Wrasse
LA $79.99
AG $60

Cryptic Six Line Wrasse
LA $79.00
AG $45


I understand that this isn?t always the case (i.e. $350 mystery wrasse) but for the sake of accuracy and fairness the post should not stand uncorrected.

 

[rjdudek]

If only it were true that buying a fish from the regional live fish stores meant that I did not have to QT the livestock. My personal experience has been that I have to QT everything from a LFS. Check the sponsor boards, they regularly have "just in today" postings, and they are serious. I see them opening coolers and dropping bags straight into the sale tanks.

I have seen pictures of the QT area of LA. It is amazing, and a good business practice. They seperate everything and keep track of it. Think about it, if you were the vendor and managed to land both the Live Aquara business and Bill's Stormdoor & Fish Shoppe who are you going to send the best stock to? OR on the flip side: you work at LA and you keep seeing your EBIT shrink over credits due to sick fish...do you keep buying from that vendor? Sometimes size works for the customer.

 

[delta]

Is there a dead horse around here


http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27682

 

[marco67]

No, you call live aquaria and they give you a refund. Simple as that. They'll refund if the fish has any health concerns, not just because its dead.


And Marc, what happens when the same thing happens with an LFS? Nothing, they offer no guarantees and no refunds on saltwater fish.

Ahh yes the almighty buck,Thats exactly my point. I wasn't refering to the money what about the animal? you can't bring it back to LA so do you kill it or tank it?

 

[Firedancer718]

In closing, for those who feel the reputable LFS is completely unnecessary, and that the BRS should offer them zero consideration, I ask you to think of someone who has been in this hobby a long time. Think of someone who you look up to. And ask them how they feel about giving at least some consideration to LFSs.

Matt

You know what Matt? Nobody here has said that. LFS have their place, and so do online vendors.

Your arguement is getting very tiresome and quite frankly, if I were new to the BRS forums and read this post I would be COMPLETELY turned off. As a matter of fact, I AM turned off.
Also, I highly doubt that removing a point of the "triangle" someone once told you about would affect my success in the hobby..thank you very much.

 

[dz6t]

Ahh yes the almighty buck,Thats exactly my point. I wasn't refering to the money what about the animal? you can't bring it back to LA so do you kill it or tank it?

What will you do as a LFS? Take the animal back? None of the LFS do that and why do you expect LA to do the same?

 

[dz6t]

I was chiding Dong a few pages back about this very point. I noticed in his signiature that he implores people to support the BRS, and rightly so. As Dong would say, this is the club that supports your hobby. And the club is one of three corners of the triangle.

I turned to Dong, and posed a hypothetical. I asked him, as membership chair: why should I pay my dues to the BRS? Can't I get everything I need for free from the club? I mean, I don't have to pay to post here. I don't have to pay to trade with people. So why should I pay my dues? Even if the BRS could no longer afford to operate, I could still go over to the RC message board, right? The answer is: such an attitude would be incredibly short-sighted of me. Even if I could get everything I need for less, the hobby would suffer. If I had an emergency at 3AM, no one except the BRS would help me.


Matt

You are right Matt, you don't have to pay to enjoy BRS because we are a non profit organization. Supporting BRS is not the same as supporting a LFS which are for-profit. Please get the fact straight.

 

[marco67]

What will you do as a LFS? Take the animal back? None of the LFS do that and why do you expect LA to do the same?

Not an LFS anymore but As a matter of fact yes,
But you still didn't answer,
Do you have a QT system?
Do you risk it and tank the animal?
Or do you Kill it?

I'll add one more question,
A few times it has been stated that the wrong fish was shipped. Waht happens to that fish, what if it's not reef safe or not compatable with your other livestock?
Tank it and cross your fingers?
Or kill it because your getting a refund and it's only a fish?

I'm not arguing either side here, only curious to know how you ensure the ongoing health of your system when buying sight unseen.

 

[dz6t]

All fish received from LA are healthy and none develop ick or any visible parasites. Except for some reason wild caught clown fish keep dying due to shipping stress. Actually, they ask you to give the wrong fish to LFS and it seems no LFS have problem getting in free fish regaradless what type it is and as long as it look healthy. I never need to deal with a wrong fish that is sick. It is once in a blue moon they will ship the wrong thing, not very often.

 

[marco67]

So does that mean your using the "cross your fingers" method?
No QT?
That just seems too risky for me, but hey to each their own. You may want to consider some kind of set up for the future as there is just no such thing as "never" when your talking fish shipping.
I like the "give it to the LFS policy at least they try to help keep it alive.

 

[Corwyn]

"You dont have to compete on price, you have to compete on value."

I think that this is right on the money! I am not an LFS but do own my own business. The equipment I deal with is available on line as well as from several local sources. Yet I manage to survive because I focus my marketing and my efforts to a targeted market segment AND I offer value to that customer that others don't! No, I don't win every bid but I make a decent enough living so that I can afford (well almost ) this hobby.

Part of that value is honesty and standing behind the product. LFS do NEITHER by and large!

Buzzard, you listed a bunch of examples of prices from AG.
My question to you is HOW DO YOU KNOW? ( I am not using them to flame, since I can say this experience with pretty much every lfs but since you pointed out this store)
Granted my experience with this store is limited to 2 visits, but prices for stuff seems to be pulled out of peoples buts, because it is certainly NOT listed - or was not the 2 times I was there. I heard a person give 2 different prices on the same thing. At first I thought I was wrong so I asked my friend to ask specifically for the item I did, and guess what he got a different price as well. There was a $30 difference. SO maybe they know you and you get better prices - this has always been a pet peeve with lfs.
At least on line the item is clearly marked and I know what it will cost me.

 

[Matt L.]

All fish received from LA are healthy and none develop ick or any visible parasites...

It's amazing! LA ships miracle fish!

Seriously, Dong, this is a laughable assertion.

Like I've said before, I can understand why some people would take the lower cost route with ordering online. Or maybe they don't have a means of transportation to a LFS, or its more convenient otherwise. Those are, in my opinion, legitimate reasons.

But don't delude yourself into thinking that buying sight unseen is somehow a safer practice than buying a fish right before your eyes. As Marco said:

I'm not arguing either side here, only curious to know how you ensure the ongoing health of your system when buying sight unseen.

Matt

 

[Gina McReeferson]

Corwyn, maybe you haven't been to The Aquarium Gallery in some time, we have only found that place in the last few months, but everytime we have gone in there since, almost all of the fish have prices marked on the glass. The corals do not (usually) but the fish do.

As I said, maybe the marked prices are a new thing, I don't know, we only found it a few months back. Maybe they weren't marked when you went.

-Gina

 

[merk1_99]

In closing, for those who feel the reputable LFS is completely unnecessary, and that the BRS should offer them zero consideration, I ask you to think of someone who has been in this hobby a long time. Think of someone who you look up to. And ask them how they feel about giving at least some consideration to LFSs.

Matt

What does this comment mean? Just because a reefer has a long running tank they are an expert on value of buying at a LFS, versus online. I have been running a tank for 10+ years and I don't consider myself an expert. I have learned to turn the BS detector on when at a LFS, and on online forums.

 

[Buzzard]

Corwin,

Good question... I think they started consistently listing fish prices a few months back. When AG first opened and for a long period afterwards you had to ask in order to get prices.

They do not list coral prices and I wish they did.

For me, AG proivdes good value: they are not the cheapest but they have great selection, knowledgeable staff and they appreciate my business.

 

[dz6t]

So does that mean your using the "cross your fingers" method?
No QT?
That just seems too risky for me, but hey to each their own. You may want to consider some kind of set up for the future as there is just no such thing as "never" when your talking fish shipping.
I like the "give it to the LFS policy at least they try to help keep it alive.

I do have a QT tank. I QT fish if they come from online or LFS. I normally don't QT fish if I bought the fish from reputable reefer in the club.

 

[dz6t]

It's amazing! LA ships miracle fish!

Seriously, Dong, this is a laughable assertion.

But don't delude yourself into thinking that buying sight unseen is somehow a safer practice than buying a fish right before your eyes. As Marco said:

Matt

Matt: I start to wondering if you are really here for a productive disccussion. Since when anyone said buying online was safer practice? I did not get a sick fish yet doesn't mean LA ship maricle fish.

 

[Firedancer718]

It's amazing! LA ships miracle fish!

Seriously, Dong, this is a laughable assertion.

Matt

Insult removed.

I think what Dong was saying is that he has not recieved a sick fish from LA.
Neither have we.

I also think you're not here for a legit conversation or debate anymore. I think you just like to hear yourself talk.
This horse has been beaten to death. Enough already!

----
I'm also going to leave my comments for AG out of this post. But I will say, my husband and I will NEVER step foot in that store again, nor will we send new reefers there.