Heat loss for Basement Sumps

[BigDora]

I have been seeing my tank temp drop quite a bit (from 81 down to 76 and counldn't get it back up for a few days) since my basement started cooling down. I had to add another heater to get it back up to 79. I have a pretty long run from where the pipes go through the floor, across the basement to the sump and refugium. There is probably quite a bit of heat loss for the overflow as well as the return line. I now have a small heater in the display tank (54 gal, 100w), one in the sump (20 gal, 100w), and one in the refugium (20 gal tank 200w). A book I have says that roughly 3 watts per gallon is about right, but that doesn't take into account a cold basement. The total system volume is about 75 gallons. I have been using the Visitherm stealth heaters that have worked fine so far, but are hard to adjust and you can't rely on the numbers on the dial and putting my hand in the tanks to adjust the temp setting doesn't seem like a good idea. I've had my tank set up since early May, so I haven't seen the impact of the cold basement which is about 55 throughout the winter.

So my questions are:
Does anyone insulate the pipes?
Anyone with better alternatives for heaters or suggest how many Watts would be appropriate?

Thanks for your help.

 

[BigDora]

meant to post this in Reef Talk

Sorry, I meant to post this in reef talk.

 

[focus]

I insulated the sump and fuge and it made a big difference. The pipes are next I am sure there is a lot of heat loss in these areas and my electric bill tells the tale that the heaters run to often in the winter. Rigid insulation works well and pipe insulation is cheap also.

 

[Arthur1]

Big D,

You're on the right track. You're not the first person to have to insulate the pipes or have to insulate around your sump, as you can see focus has had to. The old rule of thumb has always been 3-5 watts per gallon of aquarium water and no cold basement sumps weren't included into this "equation" lol. Also if you get bored get a ranco or aqua logic controller for your heaters. It'll make adjustments much easier. Have fun.

 

[delta]

If you want solve the problem you would be better off spending the money to build a small room and insultate and also raise the sump off the basment floor. Also you can add heat to the room to make it even better.

I had $100 per month added to my bill trying to heat my sump. Insultaing the sump helped but not not enough for me.

Building a small room for the sump gives you control over the the temp/ humidity and damage to surrounding areas. It might cost you 200-300 up front but the saving down the line are huge. It also doesn't limit you to what you can do in th basement creating dust etc.

 

[paulthomas]

Greg, you don't necessarily need to build a room do you? Wouldn't an enclosure the size of a decent sized closet work too?

 

[delta]

"Room" is just a term even if you put a track on the floor and ceiling that you could slide rigid foam in would work. It only matters that it is big enough for your use. The foam they use around a foundation would well as it interlocks. In the end it is cheaper to frame out a wall and insulate with the poly encapsulated roll insulation.

 

[paulthomas]

I'm thinking a small, closet-sized room myself. Doesn't have to be to code either, so I can do it myself.

 

[NateHanson]

I like Greg's idea of just making tracks that you slide rigid foam into. Blue board insulation is only about $25 for a 4x8 sheet of 1.5", so you could make a nice insulated closet for under a hundred bucks probably.

 

[paulthomas]

Not a bad idea. I've got a bunch of pipes overhead that become an obstacle. A closet sized enclosure with blue board insulation beneath them sounds simple.

 

[Kiah]

I'm in agreement on the "room". We've been doing that and it works well. Using rigid insulation and making 6 walled construction to get things up off the floor. Here is a pic of a 300 gal sump - during the construction phase.

 

[jbishop]

Very cool. This is what I am in the process of doing. DIY thread soon to come.

 

[paulthomas]

I'm in agreement on the "room". We've been doing that and it works well. Using rigid insulation and making 6 walled construction to get things up off the floor. Here is a pic of a 300 gal sump - during the construction phase.

Holey schnikeys that a huge RM tub.

 

[Greg Hiller]

Not to be flippant....but you just need to add more lights to your tank!

 

[paulthomas]

Greg,

Is that the infamous File fish?

 

[Greg Hiller]

You bettcha. RIP.

 

[paulthomas]

You bettcha. RIP.

Bummer. I'm sorry to hear that. How did he/she(?) go?

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Room

If you want solve the problem you would be better off spending the money to build a small room and insultate and also raise the sump off the basment floor. Also you can add heat to the room to make it even better.

I had $100 per month added to my bill trying to heat my sump. Insultaing the sump helped but not not enough for me.

Building a small room for the sump gives you control over the the temp/ humidity and damage to surrounding areas. It might cost you 200-300 up front but the saving down the line are huge. It also doesn't limit you to what you can do in th basement creating dust etc.

I agree with the fishroom idea. I did this in my unheated garage. I built the room adjacent to the small furnace room in my garage. In the winter, I open the door to the furnace room and close the door on the larger fishroom. The heat from the furnace room keeps the room temperature at around 70 degrees even when it is really cold in the garage. My walls on the room are permanent and insulated.

Conversely, in the winter cooling is much more efficient for two reasons: the first is it only takes a small window ac unit to keep the room and water cool mos of the time. Secondly, if it gets really warm in the room (rarely), the chiller which is outside the room turns on. Keeping the chiller outside the room really helps to cool the room down in the summer. I also vent the room to the outside with an exhaust fan on a temp/humidity controller .

Also a cover on the sump helps to keep heat in when the water gets too cool.

 

[naturebatslast]

I just did a really low budget "room", more tent really (GF calls it the mancave), with thick poly sheeting. After waking up one morning and my temp was already 75, and knowing it was only Nov and going to get a lot colder up here...something had to be done. The poly(4mil clear) was stapled ceiling to floor, plus the ceiling, in a 10 x10 area to contain the the wet air and minimize the heat loss from cold radiating off a stone foundation. Styrofoam sheets (2" and 1/2" 4x8 ) with reflective surfaces were also positioned along the foundation walls, behind the poly sheeting. Also, the sump has a half cover, and is wrapped in reflective bubblewrap (which has performed incredibly well for heat retention). The 100g stock tank sump is 10" off the ground.

What really made it work was a small bathroom exhaust fan, mounted 1 ft off the ground, underneath a small stand in corner of the room/tent/mancave. Air is moved out a basement window via a small dryer vent. It pulls the wettest and coldest air out leaving the warmer and drier air.The hose is insulated at the last foot, hopefully trying to minimize any condensation. Luckily, my forced air furnace keeps the fieldstone basement in the mid 50's so my temp differential (ambient air v tank water) is only about 25-27 degrees, could be worse.

Already, I've noticed a more constant temp, with nothing below 76.1 in the early cold morning, particularly last week when it was 14 out (Brr!). No damp smells and no instant window condensation with the opening of a door. Total cost was about $100, much cheaper than running more heaters or, IME, even a conventional dehumidifier.

 

[paulthomas]

Nature,

Do you have any pics of this? I'd love to see it.