Unfamiliar Territory

[Matt L.]

Okay, I have found mysefl in unfamiliar territory here. I posted on this delimma in a separate thread, but felt I would get more feedback if I started a new thread with a more appropriate subject.

To make a long story short, I have found myself in the situation where upon returning from vacation, a tank that had already been struggling with calcium and alkalinity levels was now virtually depleted of both, helping to cause a wild pH swing by a calcium reactor solenoid error. My calcium is below the testable range of my home kit, and I imagine my alkalinity (now) is only about 6.5 dKh. I lost many corals From what I understand, a calcium reactor cannot raise calcium and alkalinity, but only maintain it.

You may read a more in depth explaination of why I need to do a water change here.

My question is, if I have a 90gal system, how much of a water change should I do? I am particularly concerned about stressing the fish, even though I can get the temperature of the makeup water to match okay, and presumably the pH as well.

Matt

 

[nunofs]

From what I understand, a calcium reactor cannot raise calcium and alkalinity, but only maintain it.

I think that's a common misconception... if your reactor is large enough, and you adjust it in a way that provides more alk/Ca than what is used by the tank, then it will raise those levels continuously... then you'd have to dial it in again so that it would keep those higher levels. If you adjust the levels first with chemicals supplements, and then just maintain them with the reactor, you're saving one adjustement step, making the process much easier.

Regarding the water change: I don't think the fish will be too stressed by changes in alk/Ca provided you match pH and temperature... I would do a 50% or larger change (if feasible) to get alk/Ca in the right range as quickly as possible.

Nuno

 

[Armando]

when i had the tank crash due to the heater short circuit releasing chemicals in the water I did 7 water changes of 20G each during the period of 24 hours. This is a 220G system. The water went back to normal at the end (but I was exhausted )

 

[denvig]

Why not just slowly raise it with ESV B-Ionic or Two Little Fishies C-Balance etc.

The calcium you can raise fairly fast but go slowly with the Alk

 

[~Flighty~]

I think Nuno is right, but I would raise it with the home made 2 part. I would worry about changing it too fast with big water changes. Unless you think there is something in the water you need to get out then a water change wouldn't do more than adding the supliments, would it?

 

[denvig]

This Reef Chemestry Calculator can help

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

 

[nunofs]

The reason I suggested doing it faster rather then slower was to try to save the remaining corals by giving them ideal conditions as soon as possible.

Regarding doing water changes vs dosing supplements, I think water changes are safer because you can control the parameters outside the tank. If you're dosing that much alk supplement the pH will jump very high, but if you do large water changes at the right pH and alk levels the in-tank levels will get closer and closer to the desidered levels without risking a jump in pH. But alk supplements will work if you keep an eye on pH...

Nuno

 

[Matt L.]

Thanks guys.

With regards to using supplements over water changes, I am just concerned about the myriad of different ions in my tank water becoming grossly different than the ions in the salt mix (which we can presume is okay), even if the measured ions (calcium/magnesium/alkalinity/etc) are okay.

Seven, 10% water changes as Armando did are equal to a 52.17% water change. I can do continuing 25% water changes using my passive water change system which doesn't interrupt tank flow. If I do two, I'll change out 44% of the water. If I do three, it will be equal to a 58% water change. I can only do 25% water change every other day, so two water changes would occur over four days, and three water changes would occur over six days. I could speed this up if I do active water changes where I actually remove volume and then return it to the tank, but that can disturb the fishies...

Anyone else have experience doing a large volume of water changes over a short of time?

Thanks for the advice,

Matt

 

[mikestod]

Right on people! This will be a great thread for future reference!!! Here's my two cents...

Massive water changes will bring the pH, alkalinity and calcium back to near what the inherent levels in the salt mix you use, which is a pretty moderate level all around. So the "quick fix is to do a few water changes to correct the problem gradually and "reset" your water parameters to those of newly mixed salt water. To see what these levels are, just test a batch of new water.

A calcium reactor can increase calcium and alkalinity, but will only do so in a set ratio of each. Depending on the size of the reactor vs. your water volume, it can increase it to a certain point, probably well above what you need. You can run the effluent output of the reactor full bore as long as you have enough Co2 mixing in the media chamber to keep the effluent around a pH of 6.8. That being said, I'd still "reset" your parameters by water changes instead of trying to increase levels by increasing reactor output. Then use the reactor to boost calcium and alkalinity from there.

According to Randy, there is a certain ratio or balance that should be maintained in the tank, and the reactor is used to maintin those levels and can even raise them together, but can't raise just one. One of the two part additives can bring one level up if the other is already where it should be. Also, there are substitues that can be used in place of the two part system (you don't necessarily have to use B-ionic) Here's two great articles by Randy explaining reactors, additives and calcium, alkalinity and magnesium:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

And here are some other useful articles:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/index.htm
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

 

[Reef55]

I look at this the same way I look at having corals or livestock bagged up for over 24 hours when shipped... the faster I get them into the right conditions again, the better off they are. I have done the drip method, but I have found that as long as the temperature close, it is better to just get things in proper water conditions fast than it is slow. Just my experience.

 

[MarkO]

Matt, when I had my similar pH/Alk/Calcium disaster, I immediately brought the pH from below 7.4 up to about 7.8 in about 1/2 hour by adding baking soda. I don't know if it was the right move or not, but I immediately saw a drastic improvement in my fish. I too was concerned with the ionic balance of my water, but I figured the ratio of H+ and OH- ions was more important in the short term. Immediately afterwards I did 2 15% water changes in 24 hrs. then followed it up with another 15% 2 days later. During the water changes, I never noticed any difference in my tank with the exception being a less green water. My Calcium was still low, but alkalinity (which was initially very high) was right on the money. The addition of the baking soda brought my pH to a normal range. It's been about 2 weeks since the incident, and I just recently brought the pH, alk, and CA into normal ranges.

 

[wrassefan]

I in the massive water change camp.....you will be replenishing other minerals that might also be depleted. I would do 50% water change and adjust the calcium/alk with dowflake and baking soda or equivalent and bring the parameters up to "normal"

 

[Greg Hiller]

I agree with the above comments. Get the calcium and alk. back into the right levels fast with B-ionic or any two part supplement. Your calcium reactor can do it too, but you may have to drive it hard, and it will take time. Large water changes are a good idea too, but you will want to make sure the levels are correct, Instant ocean tends to be low in calcium and magnesium.

 

[clamm]

Nuno Hit The Nail On The Head, Thats A Good Way To Do It.

 

[Matt L.]

Well, I have taken all of your suggestions to heart. I have used additives to try to rescue the falling calcium and alkalinity levels as fast as I can, but regrettably, the corals that bleached during the event continue to show signs of bleaching, and I consider them lost. I am going to frag the remaining, unbleached portions of some to see if they can be saved, otherwise... I am glad my fish seem okay, and I am going to do a massive (50%) water change this weekend. This will not be done using my passive water change system which changes out 25%, but rather, I will remove 45gal, and replace 45gal. I'm very sad about this, but glad I didn't kill any fish *knocks on wood*,

Matt

 

[ScottM]

bleached corals are still living. I have had alot of bleached corals come back.
good luck with the recovery.

 

[Matt L.]

Update

Well, I performed a 50% water change on Saturday, and immediately tested for calcium and alakalinity.

My calcium was still very low, below the usable range of the test kit. My alkalinity increased to 8 dKh, which is still low, but not unreasonable.

To raise my calcium, I am making a batch of my supplement at work today (I need the balance) from calcium chloride and calcium sulfate. I think I will make enough to raise the calcium 100ppm, assuming I have 90gal in my system.

My calcium reactor seems to have settled in after last week, and I currently run on a bubble count of one every other second, and I think my flow through rate is 60mL/min. Again, I'm using an MR-2 reactor. I cannot take the pH practically after the first chamber, so I will get a pH reading after the second chamber and see what I can deduce from that.

Matt

 

[Matt L.]

bleached corals are still living. I have had alot of bleached corals come back.
good luck with the recovery.

I have left the corals in place that are bleaching, and even after changing the water, the bleaching continues to advance. Should I move them lower? Or will moving them to a n ew lighting position stress them further, as I had suspected?

Matt