Vinegar/Vodka Dosing

[inverted]

If you are only doing it to control nitrates consider just doing better maintenance. by falsely lowering nitrates you will only make things harder once you have issues down the line. get the tank in order before starting any doing regiment. water changes water changes water changes. things in a reef take months to fix once they go off course, the sooner you accept that the longer you will last in the hobby.

What does "falsely lowering nitrates" mean? The nitrates aren't really being reduced? Organisms are a natural and "real" form of nitrate reduction but can only use nitrate, if other nutrients are not so low as to inhibit their use of nitrate. In otherwords, nitrates can only accumulate when something else is low, otherwise, organisms would consume the nitrate too and it would be low.

Doing water changes, is more of a patch for nitrates, it does not address the problem and many find them to be fairly infective at reducing nitrate for that reason. There are lots of reasons, nutrients, other than nitrate can become limited, resulting in accumulation of nitrate. It could be "bad husbandry" I suppose (whatever that is), but could also just be due to the food your feeding, salt your using, microbial populations etc...

Also, touching on what mchartier said, food is a huge source of nitrate, if it isn't removed, there will be accumulation of organics in the sand (and rocks BTW), which can contribute to increased nitrate over time. On the other hand though, for well understood reasons, foods do not contain nutrients in the ratios that they are used. So, depending on the food sources, nutrients get out of balance and certain nutrients, in relatively abundant supply accumulate. Reducing nitrates is 100% a matter of balance and health (i.e. proper feeding, lack of toxins anything that would cause disease and inhibit organisms from using nitrate) and nothing else.

On the other hand though, if carbon is low, water changes may help for other reasons, as some add high amounts of organic carbon, so, a water change, in some cases but that may depend on the salt... However, IMO there is nothing more natural than balancing nutrients. So, carbon dosing, if carbon is a limiting factor, is as natural as you can get. What isn't natural is dosing carbon, if carbon isn't a limiting factor. This also occurs and causes issues IMO.

Been doing 20% WC every week for the last 3 months. Only coral line algae is growing. My chaeto is shrinking. Nitrates are the nutrient that is high. It has gone down from 100ppm to 40ppm.

Again, if chaeto is shrinking and nitrate is accumulating, there is something else the chaeto needs that it isn't getting. Often this is iron, as described here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/8/chemistry

just something else to consider. In many cases, doing iron may be a preferable first step to dosing carbon. The question between carbon and chaeto just depends if you want a algae dominant system or a bacterial dominant system. Wither can work fine. I think algae dominant systems have a longer history in the hobby though, so, for many it is the "safer" option, as it is better understood. Personally, I do find bacteria more effective though.

 

[charged45]

Now Iron? Seems like it's something new to add everyday. Does anyone add Iron to there system? I understand about the Bacterial/Algae dominant system. I would prefer the algae as it is a more natural aproach. Seems to me that they need and absorb more Phosphate than Nitrates in a system. I just removed my GFO from my reactor and replaced it w/Nitrate Sponge. Hoping that the Chaeto will grow. After 2 weeks looks like its still shrinking. Coral Line is the only Algae that seems to be growing. Dosing is the only method that has been successful in reducing my levels. I got it down from 100 to 40 ppm after 3 weeks. I stopped using it as my chaeto was shrinking. I had added more chaeto and removed the GFO in hopes of that growing and reducing nitrates. That hasn't worked so now I'm back to dosing. I'm hoping to get the bacterial levels up so my Nitrate levels will drop, then at some point stop dosing and go the more natural route if that is possible. It has been frustrating as I don't want to add anything until those levels drop.

 

[inverted]

Now Iron? Seems like it's something new to add everyday.

It's not really new, the article was from a decade ago in 2002 and honestly it wasn't really a new idea then. I've dosed Iron to keep chaeto going and it can work, but find vinegar to be more simplistic.

I understand about the Bacterial/Algae dominant system. I would prefer the algae as it is a more natural aproach.

This is one topic I always find fascinating and point out, that is, as far as reefs are concerned, algae really isn't more "natural". Usually you only find algae in dying reefs. Algae isn't natural on a healthy reef. It competes with corals for nutrients, may produces toxins, and may provide food to pathenogenic bacteria, destabilizing corals associated and symbiotic microfauna. Bacterial counts on reefs are often fairly high though, i.e. "natural", they may even be higher in nature than in well filtered reef tanks.

Marine Biology 101 - corals gain a competitive advantage over algae, by being both heterotrophic (i.e. more or less being able to consume food to get nutrients) and harboring autotrophic symbiotic alage (i.e more or less the algae produces for the coral food from light). So, algae being only autotrophic, is unable to compete with corals for nutrients and the excess nutrients go to bacteria, which is then a food source for corals. I.e. a "natural" reef is a bacterial dominant system...

Bacteria:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/eb/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature

Seems to me that they need and absorb more Phosphate than Nitrates in a system.

You can google the "Redfield ratio", this is commonly cited regarding how much carbon, nitrogen and phosphate is "used". It is 106 carbon atoms, per 16 nitrogen, to 1 phosphate. However, this isn't how much is "used", it was how much was found in phytoplankton tissue in one study. Carbon, is used in a much higher proportion, as it is used for energy, in addition to what is incorporated in tissue. Also, some organisms use nitrogen, for an intermediate step in their energy cycle. So, nitrate and carbon can be used more than what is actually found in tissue. Also, the N ratio is different for other organisms, some bacteria, for example is more like 10:1 in the tissue.

I just removed my GFO from my reactor and replaced it w/Nitrate Sponge. Hoping that the Chaeto will grow. After 2 weeks looks like its still shrinking. Coral Line is the only Algae that seems to be growing. Dosing is the only method that has been successful in reducing my levels. I got it down from 100 to 40 ppm after 3 weeks. I stopped using it as my chaeto was shrinking. I had added more chaeto and removed the GFO in hopes of that growing and reducing nitrates. That hasn't worked so now I'm back to dosing. I'm hoping to get the bacterial levels up so my Nitrate levels will drop, then at some point stop dosing and go the more natural route if that is possible. It has been frustrating as I don't want to add anything until those levels drop.

Common occurrence. Nitrate by itself isn't really harmful though, other than driving excess algae. Driving symbiotic algae can cause browning of corals and stress. Other algaes, such as turf algae, may inhibit coral growth and eventually overgrow corals. Otherwise, nitrate shouldn't be an issue. I personalty don't often test for nitrate, kit's aren't really accurate and have had a lot of reported issues. Also, watching algae growth in a system and coral coloration, is a pretty good metric IME.

 

[charged45]

Great Point about algea in an ocean enviroment. Seems as though many people use algea as a way to control nutrients. Since I have been using RO/DI water I have no issues w/any algae. If algae is not an issue w/nitrates at 40ppm is it safe to add corals?

 

[inverted]

Great Point about algea in an ocean enviroment. Seems as though many people use algea as a way to control nutrients. Since I have been using RO/DI water I have no issues w/any algae. If algae is not an issue w/nitrates at 40ppm is it safe to add corals?

How old is your tank? In a new tank, nitrification happens pretty quick, but it can take a while for natural denitrification to start to occur.

 

[delta]

water changes are a major part of maintenance to reduce waste as we run closed systems and it is one overlooked by most new comers. Fact is if they can't control nitrates without dosing (tanks natural balance)then they are falsely reducing them by dosing. Dosing is no magic pill (not that is doesn't have it's place) and can in the long run end someones hobby prematurely if they are using it for the wrong reasons.

Learn to manage a tank with a standard setup, then once you have that down start playing with different methods.

 

[charged45]

Tank is about 5 years old.

 

[inverted]

water changes are a good thing for sure, they have their limitations though, as described here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php Some biological nitrate reduction is always going to be necessary and the limitations of biological nitrate reduction, in many cases, may have to do with things, independent of tank husbandry. Lots has to do with the chemistry of a particular system. If there is a limitation, of carbon, then carbon dosing can help...

Charged45, if the tank is 5 years old, there is probably detritus/organic accumulation somewhere; i.e. sand or rocks. Keeping the sand sifted and water quality pristine can certainly prevent this, but often times, that just isn't reality. There are periods, where things are neglected, or dead spots go noticed and a sink develops. The good thing, is it doesn't need to be permanent. If water quality is kept pristine and sand is kept properly sifted and dead spots eliminated, the sink should equilibrate with the water. Sometimes if it's real bad though, people don't have the patience for this. Some people will replace sand or rocks entirely.

I don't think that this is always necessary, sometimes just rearranging the tank is sufficient, as the sudden instability forces major changes to the ecosystem and causes certain processes to occur, that may be absent in established systems. This may be preferable to dosing, as dosing in an old tank, sometimes causes bacterial matting, due to the high amounts of organics available for the bacteria. In my opinion anyways, Kick-starting more natural cycling of organics, by stirring things up a bit and relying on sand sifters, detriviors, skimming, water changes, carbon, GFO etc... may be a good first step. Then once you get turnover of organics, so, that they are being released from the sink rapidly, then, if needed, dosing may help to mop things up.

 

[delta]

Reducing the bioload via water changes has a similar effect as the tanks Bio system is set to handle that biolaod. By increasing frequency of water changes you accomplish a safe increased bacteria to waste ratio without the tedious task of carbon dosing and the side effects that can comes with it.

Carbon dosing has been known to cause extremely strong variants of Cyano bacteria that are extremely hard to out compete. And the problem with most carbon dosing it is only works temporarily as the issues at hand are usually surrounded by lack of proper care for the tank and re surface once the tanks balances on the current dosing schedule.

Stirring things up is great and combined with water changes are an extremely effective way to reset a tanks bio system.

Carbon dosing is like using chemi pure for Cyano it works but if the root of the problem is not solved it is only a temporary measure.

personally I would like to see all his parameters maintenance schedule and results of top off and mixing water TDS. Might show what the real problem is as 98% of the time it is the reefer who is the problem not the tank. We get complacent lazy or life just gets too busy for the tank

 

[charged45]

How would you suggest stirrin things up? Would that be physically stirring up sand or adding sifting animals? What type should I be adding? I did remove and rearrange the rock about 6 Mo. ago. The set up is somewhat similar. I do have a Clown Fish who is constantly moving sand around w/his tail. Along the glass the sand is clean and has what looks like worms. Water movement is very good as food doesn't settle. I have blown off the rocks using a powerhead and syphoned out the overflows. I have had the same miracle mud in the refugium since the tank was set up. Not sure if that could be a issue. I have been patient and still changing 20% of the water every week using RO/DI.

 

[inverted]

Greg, I always state that don't think carbon dosing is EVER an answer for cyano. Cyano is a bacteria and can use carbon sources, like other bacteria. That said, I've never had any cyano when carbon dosing. It all comes down to water chemistry and possibly the particular carbon source. If the environment favors other bacteria, over cyano, then you shouldn't have issues with cyano. That does mean that you need to keep up with other methods of filtration, in addition to carbon dosing. Especially in older tanks, that have a build up of organics, adding a carbon source can be like lighting a match when it comes to cyano. If accumulated organics are minimal though, cyano shouldn't be an issue.

Charged45, a first thing I would mention is triple and quadruple check your nitrate reading against other kits. People have reported errors as high as 40ppm with some test kits believe it or not. Nitrate kits can be really, really inaccurate.

Once you've done that, blowing the rocks of with powerhead is good and all, but the crud may just end up collecting elsewhere. Maybe when you do your water change, you should put some of the old water in a bucket. Move each rock to the bucket, blow it off with a powerhead. Move it to another bucket, swish it around and rinse it off and then put it back in the tank. Make sure to use saltwater though, don't scrub (especially our of water - maybe with a toothbrush, lightly, in water, if there is some algae) and don't expose to air. For the sand, it really depends on the depth. If deep, honestly, you have your work cutout. If it is deep, hasn't been properly stirred for even part of the 5 years, then it may be easier to just replace it. The good news is denitrification happens regardless of depth. Years ago, a lot of people, including some experts, such as Ron Shimek always used to say that you needed a deep sand bed. If you ask them today, they will agree that you don't. So, shallow is fine. If shallow, stirring it up isn't an issue. A sleeper goby, or pistol shrimp will do it for you really well, but can be a PITA in a reef tank as everything will be covered with sand. Nassarius and creith snails work too, but not as efficiently. With a SSB you could also just stirr it up a bit manually, at first and then rely on snails and other inverts to continue to as it re-establishes. Whatever you do, you want to remove what is released. So, you want a good skimmer that can remove everything, or you could rely on filter bags, or filter sponges (if you clean them every few days), or you could run a diatom filter every now and then. It doesn't matter, the principle is, it sounds like over time, your tank has accumulated a lot of crud that is feeding nitrates. So, want to get them released from the sinks, but also removed. At first, you may see nitrates rise, but after a month or so, as the tank is re-established with bacteria, it should stabilize and nitrates should drop.

Also, sumps collect a lot of crud, emptying your sump, or cleaning it out with a shopvac and cleaning all your equipment with vinegar is another good place to start. be a detective a bit too. Looking for algae can help indicate where sinks may have developed. If there are particular rocks with more algae than others, these could be sources for example, so, focus on them...

Also, what is the turnover compared to tank volume. 35x or more, tank volume per hour is often needed to reduce deadspots. Doing a 20% water change, do you match the temperature, alkalinity, s.g. etc.. Adding a lot of water, if not matched to the tank, can destabilize things further. Sometimes it may be better to split the 20% and do 10% one day and 10% the next. It seems like it would be less efficient, but as shown in the water change article, it actually, doesn't make that much of a difference. It may help to destabilize things at first, to release the sinks, but for nitrate to start going down, you then definitely need stability. And yeah, I think miracle mud is junk, at least for most moden stony coral reef style tanks (it may be okay for softcoral tanks, or macro algae tanks, where slightly higher nutrients are desirable). It's really just nasty old sand, that has lots of nutrients in it and collects lots of crud. If you have nitrate issues, this is exactly what you don't want.

 

[charged45]

Can you recomend a reliable test kit for nitrates? I blew off the rocks today. Was surprised at how much came off. Did that about a month ago and had a lot come off then. 2 weeks ago nothing came off. Not sure where that could be coming from. my water turns over approx 6x per hour. I am running a koria1400 and a koria mag6. Did a 25% WC today nitrates dropped to 20ppm according to the test. I try to keep replacement water at the same salinity and temp. I don't test for Alk. as I don't have any corals yet. Been waiting for the nitrates to drop. Again, I have no algae growth anywhere. Only coral line which grows like crazy. Should I use a wet/dry and pump out the mud in the sump? Should I replace that w/anything? I will order some Nass and certh snails this week.

 

[inverted]

Sorry, I have been tied up and never got a chance to respond...

Anyways, there really isn't an affordable, reliable nitrate test kit. From what I understand, nitrate is difficult to test and a really reliable kit would be out of the financial realm of hobbyists. I use Salifert occasionally, but am well aware that algae growth and coral coloration is a better indicator. So, I rarely test to be honest.

As to the miracle mud, it is designed to release nitrate and other nutrients to help algae grow. In my opinion, if algae won't grow, that is not a problem and most should be so lucky. As it can add nitrates and you think you have nitrates, and are concerned about them, unless you have a goal that would benefit from it, it seems reasonable to think that you could do without it.

As for turnover, 6x is too low for a reef tank. Different corals can tolerate different amounts of flow. My tank has a mix of corals and I currently run about 54x turnover. Some people, run much more than that, although,corals with more soft tissue, such as some soft and LPS corals can be damaged by too much flow. So, some tanks may also do better with less flow. Flow, combined with good filtration can really help eliminate waste, by keeping it suspended, so that it can be removed by the filtration. One good thing is, corals that can't tolerate as much flow, often do not mind nutrients as much (and may even benefit), whereas corals that can handle flow, often do better with lower nutrients. So, it works out, but to be honest, I don't think any tank really should have much less than 30x turnover. Also that turnover should be produced by powerheads that produce wide flow patterns, not pumps that produce narrow streams (koralia powerheads are fine). I would definitely pic up some more koralias though. Do you have an idea of what corals you want to keep?

 

[charged45]

I thought when you mentioned turnover you meant from my return. The Mag 6 puts out 2200 GPH the 1400 puts out 1400 GPH. Both are on 24/7 as well as the return pump. Based on what you said and the fact I have no algea issues my test kit may be off. I haven't had any type of algea growth other than coral line in over 6 months. As for corals, not sure what I want to start with. My experience in this hobby has been mostly fish w/basic corals like bubble coral and some mushrooms. I don't have any as of now. Was going to wait til nitrates went down. I would like to develop a tank w/LPS and SPS. I plan on running LED's. Any suggestions on starter corals you can recomend? Thanks for your help. You like the Pats draft this year? Looking forward to this season.

 

[JohnK]

The Mag 6 puts out 2200 GPH

Huh? Am I reading that right?

 

[charged45]

Powerhead John.