what do you think about my sump idea

[jenreef]

i have a 55 gallon soon to be reef tank and i have a 14 gallon tank which is going to be the sump. before i start buying everything for the sump i wanted to know if this sump idea will work. i am going to get the eshopps over flow box 300 gph. attach the the over flow box to a wet and dry filter drain. attach the filter drain to pvc cut the pvc and attach a ball valve to it. i plan on doing the first compartment 3" big. after the first compartment i am going to have a 1" baffle. than on the second compartment i am going to have my protein skimmer which due to the size of the sump it has to be a h.o.b skimmer. i plan on getting the reef octupus bh 2000. i am aslo going to have in the second compartment a refugium just some sand and some micro algae and heaters. the second compartment will be 8" big. than i am going to put another 1" baffle. and on the last compartment i am going to have my a.t.o and the return pump which is going to be a eheim 1250 which does 317gph. i am going to connect the return pump to tubing and cut the tubing half way to connect a ball valve. than i am going to connect the tubbing to the chiller which i plan on buying the aqua euro 1/13 hp which does a flow rate of up to 290 gph. from the chiller i am going to connect the tubing to a directional u tube to go into the tank. i plan on doing the last compartment 7" big. what i am worried about is the return pump gph is a little to strong for the over flow box and the chiller but i plan on lowering a little the return pump with the ball valve since it's only over 17 gph. do you think my plan will work? do you think my compartment dimensions are ok? do you think i should change something?

 

[JohnK]

I'm not sure I followed the explanation right, but here are some thoughts;

-Are you sure you need a chiller? They are very expensive, use a lot of electricity, and throw a lot of heat into the room somewhat defeating the purpose since that atmoshperic heat will heat the tank while the chiller works to cool it.
-You mentioned a "wet dry" section. If it will be reef, I would suggest considering skipping the wet dry.
-To control the flow of the pump, you can restrict the output line from the pump. If you restrict the drain to the sump, you will cause a flood (it read like you wanted to slow the flow with a valve on the drain)
-All pumps lose some flow when actually pumping through plumbing. Basically it's called "head loss", which is the total reduction in flow both from pushing the water up against gravity, and from friction as the water is pushed through the plumbing. If the pump is rated at 317 GPH, you can expect it to move noticably less than that in actual use. (most if not all pumps should have graphs available that help you to figure out how much they will flow at a given "head height")
-Is the main tank already set up? If not, I would suggest drilling it and installing an internal overflow box. It's not hard to do, plenty of people here can help, and it is MUCH more reliable than a HOB overflow.
-Your plan for the sump sounds good. I would add caution though, the tape (I assume representing baffles) looks quite close together. You'll want at least 1" between baffles, with 1.5" being better in most cases. If they are too close together, water will pass through so fast that it carries micro bubbles through insted of letting them rise out.

This shows a little flow chart for the 1250. It looks like it would move about 175gph at 4" of head.
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/add_info.cfm?pCatId=4604

And here's the easiest way to set up an internal overflow;
http://www.glass-holes.com/Complete-Overflow-Kits_c3.htm

 

[jenreef]

here is the link to the wet and dry filter drain i was talking about that i plan to connect to the over flow box so the water to go into the sump http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=18447. and yes i do plan for it to be a reef tank. what i was planning to do since the pump is a liitle stronger than the overflow box was to close up the ball valve a little on the return pump side. i just don't want to pump to push water faster to the tank and the over flow box not being able to catch up with the return pump. you said the return pump by going through the plumbing will loose some flow. do you recommend just leaving the return pump the way it is and not try to lower the flow because by going through the plumbing it's going to already lower the flow. do you think at the end of the day the over flowbox and the return pump will equal out? by the way the max head of the return pump is 6.5 feet. i will make sure also that the baffles are 1-1.5 inch apart. do you recommend me just me trying to find another another return pump that is exactly 300 gph so it will match the overflow box that is 300gph?

 

[JohnK]

That hose kit in the link would be OK, but you can do the same job for about $5 of PVC parts and pipe from HD. Also, using those flex hoses can be a PITA because they are very sensitive to angles and can end up being quite noisy.

Now I see you are not talking about a "wet dry" fliter, that's the label they had on the hose kit.

For the pump / overflow - the pump will set the flow rate for everything (unless it's too much for the overflow, then you get a flood). Basically pump pushes water up and gravity brings it back down. The one caveat is that with a lot of the HOB overflows, if the flow is substantially slower than they were designed for, air bubbles can build up and break the siphion. (this is one of the MAJOR reasons that an internal overflow is MUCH safer. Do you have a link to the overflow your looking at?

 

[jenreef]

here is the link to the overflow box http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=18358
so now i am just going to use regular pvc instead of the hose kit. it will be a lot cheaper.

 

[jenreef]

looking at the flow chart for the 1250 return pump. i see that maybe it will not be strong enough for the overflow box since the return pump at 4 ft will only be pushing 165gph. and my overflow box is 300gph. thank you so much for that chart. how about the mag drive 5 it says at 4ft the gph will be 310. here is the link http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4590

 

[JohnK]

OK, that's a traditional style "u-tube" overflow. They are pretty good for HOD styles overflows, and should be reasonably reliable as long as the flow isn't a lot slower than intended. It says it's rated for 300gph, so I'd guess it would work OK as long as the pump is pushing 200-300 gph. (Or did I mention drililng the tank and going internal )

FWIW, there are a lot of ways to save a ton of $ on these things in this hobby. There are endless crap products out there.

Speaking of saving $, a window air conditioner is probably cheaper, at least as effective, and a lot nicer to live with than a chiller. Most of us don't run chillers

 

[JohnK]

IMO mag drive pumps are crap. (though a lot of people use them and are happy with them). If your looking at an eheim, keep looking at them, they are far superior quality pumps.

Edit, I see how you would fall in the middle between the 1250 and 1260. Using an internal overflow would solve that, you could use either without worry.....

{Yes, I am trying to talk you into going internal. If you don't, you will regret it eventually}

 

[jenreef]

well the mag 5 return pump at 4ft is 310gph. so again the return pump will be going faster than the overflow box but only for very little. as far as the chiller goes i am going to be running medal halide retro fit a total of almost 500 watts in a canopy and of course with all medal halide especially enclosed in a aquarium i am going to be dealing with a lot of heat. i am defenitely going to be running a air conditioner. but i don't think the air conditioner is going to chill the tank water that much as oppose to a chiller. i was thinking to get one of those canopies fans like this one http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...ty&idProduct=CP5911&IdCategory=FILTACAF&tab=0. but i don't think that is going to cool the tank much. what do you think?

 

[jenreef]

i could tell you are trying to get me to go with a internal overflow with my tank. but my tank is tempered glass and i can't drill it

 

[Scott]

i could tell you are trying to get me to go with a internal overflow with my tank. but my tank is tempered glass and i can't drill it

if you INSIST on external overflow I've got both a CPR overflow (uses an aqualifter pump) and a U-tube type overflow (don't know the brand).

I've used both fairly extensively and the U-tube has lost siphon a few times on me while the CPR never failed, though the airline tube can get clogged with algae if it gets some light.

You're welcome to either or both if you want them. They're just collecting dust and honestly, I'm sick of dealing with selling stuff.

The tube on the U-tube itself is cracked, but can surely be sealed up with a liberal application of silicone.

(Added: One condition for the freebies. Promise me that you'll soon join the BRS as a paying member. )

 

[JohnK]

Tempered, that stinks. OK, so HOB it is

The problem with chillers is that they throw so much heat into the room. The heater and AC will be fighting each other, with your electric bill paying the price

If you ventilate the hood well, and possibly have a fan blowing directly across the water surface (evaporative cooling can be good for 5 degrees.)

I'd skip that fan in the link though, check these out, quieter and moves twice the air;
http://www.acousticpc.com/noctua_store.html
http://www.acousticpc.com/silenx_ultra_quiet_pro_series_fans.html

 

[number1gsxxr]

I'm not doubting you but sometimes tanks say tempered and they only mean the bottom pane of glass. Here's a quick test to check if it is indeed tempered. http://www.salt-city.org/showthread.php?t=9542

Drilled tanks are really the way to go. I have a U-tube type overflow in my 46-gal and it has flooded my floor twice now. I can't wait for my 75 (which is drilled) to be setup. It's such a pain worrying about a flood. The U-tube overflow can be done, but in my opinion is a lot less reliable.

 

[jenreef]

my tank is from marineland so i went to marineland.com to see if the tank was completely tempered or if it was just the bottom panel and it says there 55 gallon tank is all tempered. so i have no choice but to do the u tube type overflow

 

[jenreef]

ok i think i have the sump situation all set. now i am thinking should i really get a chiller. does anybody here use a chiller? i was thinking about using a clip on cooling fan like this one http://www.officedepot.com/a/produc...nt-_-Google-_-Cleaning_and_Breakroom-_-769395 or this one http://www.marinedepot.com/Sunlight...g-Sunlight_Supply_Inc-SL2911-FILTACAF-vi.html and clipping it to the sump or if i can clipping it some how to the canopy so it can blow air into the display tank. i was also thinking to just to use a air conditioner and have it set to 78 degrees. but will just a air conditioner cool the tank? i just don't want to have the same problem as i had with my last reef tank. i was cooling of my last reef tank with just one big fan on top of the tank aiming it towards the top of the tank. and my tank temperature was always fluctuating. i don't want to do the same with this tank. what do you guys use to cool of your tank?

 

[Scott]

ok i think i have the sump situation all set. now i am thinking should i really get a chiller. does anybody here use a chiller? i was thinking about using a clip on cooling fan like this one http://www.officedepot.com/a/produc...nt-_-Google-_-Cleaning_and_Breakroom-_-769395 or this one http://www.marinedepot.com/Sunlight...g-Sunlight_Supply_Inc-SL2911-FILTACAF-vi.html and clipping it to the sump or if i can clipping it some how to the canopy so it can blow air into the display tank. i was also thinking to just to use a air conditioner and have it set to 78 degrees. but will just a air conditioner cool the tank? i just don't want to have the same problem as i had with my last reef tank. i was cooling of my last reef tank with just one big fan on top of the tank aiming it towards the top of the tank. and my tank temperature was always fluctuating. i don't want to do the same with this tank. what do you guys use to cool of your tank?

I do fine with just an air conditioner keeping the room cool (I have one 150W MH over a 36G Solana). It's my office that has computers in it as well so the AC works hard, but it does the job. I have a vortex fan that I don't put over the tank, just hidden down low to circulate the air in that corner of the room.

Any fan will work as long as it's blowing across the water. And I believe you can increase the cooling effect if you can set up a powerhead to create some turbulence on the water surface.

 

[jenreef]

ok why should there be no leaks between baffles in the sump?

 

[JohnK]

ok why should there be no leaks between baffles in the sump?

At least for most applications that I can think of, it's not a big deal if there is a little leak on a baffle IMO.