A few refugium questions

[Pat02026]

I picked up a 5.5 gal tank today with intentions of using it as a fuge. I picked up a 1/2" bulkhead at the LFS and grabbed a glass hole saw from lowes and got to work. I somehow managed to not break the tiny little thing. Now the bulkhead is installed, stand is built and the tank is in its new home beside and above my display (which btw is only a 20l ) I will feed the fuge with a MJ600 or 800 and it will drain through the overflow into the display.

Now the question is my sandbed in the display is only 1/2" thick so should I utilize the space in the fuge to run a DSB or is it not necessary?

I mainly plan on keeping macro algae (cheato) in there. should I just get a cheapey lowes fixture and a 6500k bulb for lighting?

Does anyone have a suggestion for pump size to feed it as well, I'm thinking a MJ600 will be plenty. Would an 800 be too big in terms of too much flow through and for a 1/2" drain to handle (the distance from the pump to the fuge will be about 6-8" vertical from the display to take head loss into acct.)

Thanks, Pat

 

[niftyjosh]

I think your going to need more than a 1/2 drain. I have a similar Fuge and run a 1200 rio for it with an 1.25" drain.

I started with a 3/4" drain and a 800 rio but there wasn't enough flow and the drain couldn't keep up.

I have less than 3' of head on the pump as well.

 

[cilyjr]

A 1/2 bulkhead will only handle about 100 gph or a bit less so you will need a pump that is less then that.

A dsb is up to you. The main reason for running one is for denitratification so if you don't have high nitrates what's the point? I should say that I am anti dsb though so seek out other opinions.
The cheap light fixture will work just fine. I used cheap aluminum reflector with a 5000k flood bulb and had success growing macro

 

[SteveDola]

Deb would prolly only aid slightly in denitrification but running a bb fife would make it easier to clean the detrius


Sent from my Nexus S 4G

 

[Pat02026]

Steve, are you suggesting bare bottom? Are people starting to get away from DSB's nowadays?

It looks like I am underestimating the flow needs for this as well; I was under the impression you only need/want as much as it takes to keep the cheato "spinning" . I intended on running the pump outlet directly in the center of the side pane of the tank to get direct central flow across the top of the fuge.

 

[niftyjosh]

With the 1200 my chaeto wont even budge even when trimmed to orange size. I just flip it every now and then.

As for a light I picked up a 5500k LED regular socket bulb at home depot and put it in a desk lamp. Grows macros and coraline like crazy.

 

[IPWitan]

A dsb works, but you can also just put the sand in a plastic cup. No one ever said it had to cover the entire bottom... Also, the DSB only works for nitrate and not for phosphate. My experience is that phosphate is much harder to control - not nitrates. My recommendation would be to run chaeto (which consumes both phosphate and nitrate) in the fuge and see if you have nitrate problems. If you have rock, then nitrates are likely going to be zero. In the 5+ years I have been doing this, I have never had an issue with nitrates as they have always tested at zero. In fact, I would guess that most have an issue of imbalance, where nitrates are consumed far more than phosphates, and in theory, need to ADD nitrates in order to balance out the phosphate removal thru chaeto. For example, I have a refugium and a lot of rock in my tank. My chaeto does not grow well. I attribute this to not having enough nitrates, despite the presence of phosphate. I assume there are phosphates as I have algae in the main tank.

I would guess that if you run a fish heavy tank, then the dsb could be useful. Notwithstanding, a DBS works, but it highly overrated.

Hope this helps.

DAG

 

[Pat02026]

hmmm just thinking out loud a bit here, hopefully not being counter productive. How about enough pump to move the water through the tank, then say a korilia nano or similar to aid in movement in the tank (meaning the fuge of course)

This leads me to another question; Is there such thing as too much flow for a fuge? Or is that going to depend on what its contents are....

 

[Pat02026]

A dsb works, but you can also just put the sand in a plastic cup. No one ever said it had to cover the entire bottom... Also, the DSB only works for nitrate and not for phosphate. My experience is that phosphate is much harder to control - not nitrates. My recommendation would be to run chaeto (which consumes both phosphate and nitrate) in the fuge and see if you have nitrate problems. If you have rock, then nitrates are likely going to be zero. In the 5+ years I have been doing this, I have never had an issue with nitrates as they have always tested at zero. In fact, I would guess that most have an issue of imbalance, where nitrates are consumed far more than phosphates, and in theory, need to ADD nitrates in order to balance out the phosphate removal thru chaeto. For example, I have a refugium and a lot of rock in my tank. My chaeto does not grow well. I attribute this to not having enough nitrates, despite the presence of phosphate. I assume there are phosphates as I have algae in the main tank.

I would guess that if you run a fish heavy tank, then the dsb could be useful. Notwithstanding, a DBS works, but it highly overrated.

Hope this helps.

DAG

Thanks for your input. You are saying the cheato is looking to consume a balanced amount of phosphates and nitrates to thrive. Ultimately my goal is to keep both of these under control. Being such a small tank I will obviously not be able to crowd the tank too much, especially not with any medium to large fish. I am leaning towards bare bottom, with a fair amount of as small as I can find pieces of rubble rock.

 

[niftyjosh]

I believe you want lower flow for maximum water contact time with macros.

I think pods and such prefer it as well. I have a few pieces of rubble with bare bottom. Can't look anywhere with out seeing mysid shrimp or other pods.

 

[Pat02026]

I believe you want lower flow for maximum water contact time with macros.

I think pods and such prefer it as well. I have a few pieces of rubble with bare bottom. Can't look anywhere with out seeing mysid shrimp or other pods.

This is what I'm after, and that was my initial thought. Really just weighing my options here and combining my ideas with the members experience.

 

[IPWitan]

You have raised 2 issues of re the fuge - (1) a place for macros and (2) a place to breed pods. For the first, I recommend a bare bottom as it is easier to clean. For the later, I recommend some sand a rubble. For the first, there needs to be enough flow over the macros (not necessarily over the whole fuge, just over the macros. I have never read that too much flow is possible for macros - it can be an issue if you have sand in the tank. For a pod growth, the flow shouldn't be enough to blow the sand.

I once had a hob fuge that worked really well. The macros growth was dense and pods everywhere. Unfortunately, my sump one doesn't work at all! No idea why... Some have said not enough flow, so I increased flow. Some said needs more light, so I added another light. Despite all this, it just isn't thriving. My latest thought is to create a separate chamber for the macros which is about 6 inches wide. Then in the sump, I will force all the water to circulate through the macros before it leaves the chamber. This should replicate what my HOB fuge did. This is a project for today. We shall see if it works.

And if this works, then the flow will be higher per volume in the macros chamber. Then, in the rest of the fuge I can use it to grow out corals or breed pods. Hope your fuge works.

DAG

 

[Pat02026]

That is actually a good idea. I am thinking I will have 2 chambers in the fuge. first will be the entry chamber where I will have bare bottom and macro along with a small powerhead close to the bottom to keep water circulating from the bottom up. The second chamber on the return end of the tank will have some sand and a good amount of the smallest rock rubble I can find for pod growth, and will be limited to water flow by the amount that moves through the fuge whereas the macro side will have a dedicated powerhead for greater water movement in that section. Any pros/cons to this arrangement?

 

[mordibv]

Steve, are you suggesting bare bottom? Are people starting to get away from DSB's nowadays?

It looks like I am underestimating the flow needs for this as well; I was under the impression you only need/want as much as it takes to keep the cheato "spinning" . I intended on running the pump outlet directly in the center of the side pane of the tank to get direct central flow across the top of the fuge.

Ron Shimek recently wrote a series of articles in Coral Magazine on DSB's . I guess he is trying to revive their use . He did explain a lot of the do's and dont's . I thought about adding a deep sand to my fuge but have not decided on it yet . If you get a chance it's a good read . I do have the grunge from my live rock in there . I put Chaeto , two other macro algaes in there so far . I also picked up a yellow ball sponge that I have in my display that will eventually go in there as well .

 

[Pat02026]

Just added a baffle. I will flip it over tomorrow and silicone the other side. Heres a pic of the fuge, and the stand it will sit on next to the tank

 

[SteveDola]

Sorry guys, stupid auto correct has been messing with me lately. I was indeed refering to a Bare Bottom fuge. The flow rate threw the fuge can be slow and a good place for waste to build up. The cheato is going to do most of the nutrient export and the BB will be easy to vaccum out any waste that builds up. Of course you can always add a pump to the fuge how much space do you really have in the 5 gallon fuge for a 5" DSB, LR and the cheato. Its up to you...I used to run a 20 g fuge on my 75g with a 5-6" DSB but I would always get crud build up in the corners and working under a stand is kind of tight. Did it help? Probably but I dont know---the GIANT ball of Cheato was most likely doing the majority of the work. I would add a few baseball sized pieces of good LR and just let the cheato do its thing. THe concept youve come up with sounds good. I just worry about the pump in the macro chamber getting clogged up all the time and youre also limiting the amount of macro you can grow in that small chamber. I may suggest using the first chamber for liverock rubble and the second as the macro fuge. Either way youre going to get a lot of pod from LR and Cheato.

Nothing is set in stone. If a month down the line you decide you want to change it...do it. Either way you cant go wrong with a fuge. Im still racking my brain tring to figure out a way to add one to my all in one tank.

 

[Pat02026]

I am truly thinking I will not be gaining much with a DSB anyhow. I cant possibly see such a small system producing enough waste to be that big of an issue. (keeping in mind this is only a 20l main tank) Ultimately I am after a small but complete system which can efficiently handle a fair amount of its own weight in nutrient export and in production of food sources within itself. I don't want to seem like I am trying to build a perpetual machine here, I will be handling all the frequent tasks of husbandry that is required to run a system albeit small as it is, but would like for it to be as complete as possible. This is still very new to me since I had a much larger setup before and it taught me some very valuable lessons in which I would like to rebuild correctly but on a much smaller scale. FWIW I am also running a fairly stout PM skimmer (rated for 60 gallons) on this ~25 gallon system. I will also be starting with just about all fresh dry rock save for a few lbs of live for the seed and brand new sand. I had used sand and used rock from random sources in the old tank and that fueled all kinds of problems that probably would have been near impossible for a veteran in the hobby to overcome never mind someone who had no Idea what they were doing!

 

[delta]

With cheato you want a lot of flow as it makes it grow faster and the faster it grows the more nutrients it needs to grow. Take out the over growth rinse and repeat.

However given the size of the fuges most of us run they are not a very efficient means of nutrient reduction. If anything thing the life they house is more beneficial to the tank than the nutrient exportation.

Having sand is a good thing for the life it will house

As far as a DSB I just never felt they were of any huge benefit and IMHO why they went out of popularity.

As far as waste, your large system was much more forgiving than you small system will be. Although it is easier to manage, unlike a large tank tasks a considerably smaller.

 

[SteveDola]

Old sand? I would NEVER use or recommend using. To many issues to concern myself with when its relatively inexpensive (dry).

Old LR? I too have been bitten by the allure of cheap seasoned LR> THere are many tanks' LR that would serve well to start a new reef around however there are also many tanks out there that have been neglected and the LR becomes a sinkhole for trates/po4. Be careful to buy good coraline covered liverock and not just white rock from a tank/fuge.
--------------------
the smaller the tank the more unstable the parameters will be. It wont take much to throw the tank out of wack. forget to dose or topoff a few times and things start to go haywire. My advice is be diligent in testing and try to buy as many helpful automating devices as you can...IE a doser/controller/ATO(used will always help save money if thats a prob). the less the reef has to rely on you to check it everyday...the more stable it will be. Also, set up an easy schedule for water changes and testing-if youre home every monday night watching youre fav show make time before.

Adding additional water volume via a fuge is a good idea to help with stability issues but the additional 3-4 gallons of added water (although helpful) wont really help all that much to the fluxuations. I went from a 75 g with 20-fuge + 30 sump to a 60g cube with 10g sump...seems like a small downsize but the headaches from being lazy or forgetting add up 3 times as fast than those of my old tank.

Good Luck---you seem like youre heading in the right direction

 

[Pat02026]

Heres another question to add; What should I use for sand and what would be pros and cons of each
crushed coral
typical aragonite
fine sand
This will be for the chamber with rubble rock and no algae only anticipating about an inch or two depth