LFS vs. Online discussion split from FosterSmith Poll

[Matt L.]

Support LFS does not equal to support BRS.

Or does it?

I do know that LFSs pay BRS a large amount to be a sponsor. No, we don't owe them anything in return, but there is a connection between LFS (and online vendors) and the BRS. And that is why I feel this discussion (for the umpteenth time) is so important to have.

If everyone pay thier dues, this board will not be shut down.

But what if people started deciding that RC is free, and they shouldn't pay their dues to keep this message board alive? Wouldn't that be a loss to the Boston Reefers Community? Wouldn't that be at least somewhat similar to people deciding that they can get goods for less online, and possibly causing LFSs to go out of business?

For better or worse, the BRS and LFSs are a part of the local community. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe we don't need the LFSs, but the whole reason I am going through this effort here is to maybe remind people that the LFSs are, at least in my opinion, important to the reef club.

You make it sound like it is the LFS keeping this club alive. I am very offended by that.

Dong, I never said that*. You know that I've done business with you in the past and would do business with you again in the future in a heartbeat. There is nothing personal about this discussion.

Matt

* But I am aware of that discussion higher up in the BRS.

 

[dz6t]

whoa,
does that mean the club might actually reimburse Joefitz for all his server space, forum maint. and time??? or does the club plan to contiune to get that for free.

the LFS certainly doesn't keep this club alive, but also remember that this club does not keep the LFS alive either....

Myself believe that we should pay Joe for his service but I am not a BOD so I am not invole with the board.

 

[smcnally]

I'm not sure what the reputable LFSs can do... It is mathematically impossible for them to offer goods at the same price as online vendors due to the economy of scale. They often have to buy goods at a price higher than an online vendor sells them at, before they add any markup for profit. I don't think running a reputable LFS is the most lucrative business.

Local stores would drum up a lot more livestock business by offering a 7-14 day guarantee on their fish. I think that is what Liam was getting at. It's a no brainer to buy online when the livestock is cheaper AND comes with a 14 day guarantee.

 

[Matt L.]

Local stores would drum up a lot more livestock business by offering a 7-14 day guarantee on their fish. I think that is what Liam was getting at. It's a no brainer to buy online when the livestock is cheaper AND comes with a 14 day guarantee.

I agree completely. I never meant to make all our LFSs out to be saints here

I shop primarily at two LFSs for livestock, and both will hold fish for an indefinite period of time in their system.

On seprate occasions, I have had them hold fish for one month's time.

For one store, they were willing to do this if I would simply forgo the BRS discount on the purchase. Also, I did not need to pay for the fish until pickup.

I'm not a huge fan of the stay alive guarentees myself, simply because in my experience, most fish problems happen either in the first day, or between 15 and 60 days

However, I think an interesting idea for an LFS would be the sale of quarentined fish. But I imagine what the LFSs would say is that they can't afford this. Most people wouldn't care for the extra treatment, and customers would simply go wherever the price is cheaper. I think they'd say only the BRS types would be interested in paying extra for a quarentined fish.

Matt

 

[dz6t]

No offense but if everyone buy fish like you do, LFS won't survive. If I was LFS store owner, I would have a big headache whenever I see you come in.

 

[Liam]

Matt what about your experience with your powder brown
http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25688

 

[Liam]

which sadly ended with this
http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29590

 

[Matt L.]

Matt what about your experience with your powder brown
http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25688

What about it?

 

[seahorse1]

I would also buy fish from a LFS if the prices were reasonable. I bought a yellow tang online for $19.99. The tang at my LFS was $59.00. Why would I buy a fish locally for 3x the price? The LFS I felt was jacking me up....he prolly paid $19.99 also, or cheaper, but priced it up 3x. I dont feel that thats necessary. I understand he's trying to make a profit but if he lowered his prices then more people would shop there instead of online, I know I would. Granted that I have to pay a shipping charge, but thats for the WHOLE order not just that one fish.

Even with the non livestock stuff the prices are high. I went to a store to buy a 10" aquatic forcep and paid $ 19.99. Dr Fosters has the same one for $3.39. Need I say more on that?

I have placed 4-5 orders already through LiveAquaria and have been totally happy & satisfied. Buying online also gives me better variety & selection where as the LFS I am limited to what they have in stock.

Maybe the LFS's can lower their prices to entice more walk in business. But for now, I am sticking to the online vendors.

 

[Alex]

I tend to shop both online and at LFS. I look at going to the LFS as window shopping which usually ends up with a hundred dollar expenditure. lol The way I see it business in this country either learns to adapt or it dies. The internet has changed a lot of different businesses and will change more going forward, which is why so many of those internet stocks are still trading at such rediculouse P/E ratios. As was mentioned earlier in this thread many of the online vendors are LFS themselves but they have found a way to generate new revenue thru the internet. I do believe that for local LFS to charge the prices they do they need to offer something to the consumer that makes it worth it to them. They need to find what they're built in advantages are and work with them. Maybe offer sameday delivery for a fee, post the credentials of the people working in thier salt water section, have an online stocklist that is updated daily so people know whether it's worth it to take the trip today, at the very least be polite and build a relationship with their customers. The internet is a new fact of life and has revolutionalized the way we shop. It really is a more pure market because you have a way to put together more suppliers with more customers. The bottom line is this is a business and we are talking about hard earned money here. I'm only going to pay higher prices if I feel I'm getting something for my money.

 

[Liam]

What about it?

this is why i am now often choosing online over LFS.
I feel the benefit of buying livestock locally for the reasons you are advocating in this thread are not neccessarily there.You take your chances in this hobby wherever you buy so cost is going to be the determining factor for me.Agreed if the difference in price is minimal then it may be different but it seems in my experience the difference is huge.
I guess i really don't understand how you can be such an advocate.

 

[Greg Hiller]

>They did ship wrong things but they give you full credit.<

But what do you do with the fish that you didin't want. It's not always easy to give it away. Do you just kill it? NEAq usually won't take either.

 

[Liam]

Dong,

I've known for a long time that you have an axe to grind with some of the LFSs, but I also think you've been going to the wrong LFSs. More than double online retail and Xenia that isn't pretty much free are pretty much signs you need to find a new LFS. The point I'm trying to make is that if you don't support the reputable LFSs, there won't be any, and that makes this hobby a lot harder.

Matt

P.S.: Who are the Boston Cheaper?

Matt the Boston Cheapers are you and i.This is the name given to members of the Boston reefers society by several of the very LFS you are promoting.
Several LFS think that the BRS folks will only buy stuff at ridiculously low prices.
Where in actual fact BRS members would rather buy things at their LFS when they are offered at the NORMAL going rate

 

[Matt L.]

...I guess i really don't understand how you can be such an advocate.

(If you read the first PBwnT thread of mine that you posted, in my initial post, I was actually trying to buy from an online vendor because I had difficulty finding a specimen locally, and was having a very bad experience with this online vendor )

Before I begin, I know that some people will see this purely in terms of cost. I know these same people would buy a fish for $19.99 online if it was sold for $20.00 locally. And if that's what they want to do, at the end of the day, you gotta do what you gotta do.

And I also know there are many shady and disreputable LFSs; some of which are even our sponsors. But I also know there are several reputable and wonderful ones.

So... why am I being such an advocate of LFSs?

1. I think the local reefkeeping hobby would suffer terribly without the presence of reputable LFSs in the area.
2. I do believe the loss of LFSs would be detrimental to bringing new people into the hobby.
3. Many of these LFSs sponsor the BRS. We don't specifically owe them anything in return, but I do feel we owe them some consideration on the price of their goods, especially since it is mathematically impossible for them to compete with online vendors, and not to slap them in the face.
4. Finally, LFSs provide some of us with many opportunities that we will never be able to get from an online vendor. One example is being able to observe our fish before we buy them and have them held for a period of time to ensure a healthy specimen. Another example is to make sure that our corals have not been photoshopped. And finally, a third example is the bulkhead needed in an emergency at 3:00pm on a Saturday.

But I think when people see this purely in terms of cost, there's a piece of the story missing. I think the issue is more complex than just the cost of livestock and dry goods. When you support a LFS, in my opinion, you are supporting a business that makes this hobby possible.

My metaphor from before was the BRS club itself. I think reefkeeping in Bston would suffer terribly without the BRS. But just because the RC message board is free, it doesn't mean I'm going to stop paying dues to the BRS. I could argue that I could get everything I need online and from the RC message board, and thus why should I pay my dues? They'd still let me post here. But I know that my dues go towards making this hobby better, even if I could get the same thing somewhere else for cheaper.

I know there are bad LFSs. I've been to them, and I'd never go back. I would order online before I went back to them. But I see my paying extra for certain goods at the reputable LFSs as my paying dues to the hobby. That's all.

Matt

 

[Matt L.]

Matt the Boston Cheapers are you and i.This is the name given to members of the Boston reefers society by several of the very LFS you are promoting.

After reading this thread, I'm not sure I could argue against our deserving of that name

...Several LFS think that the BRS folks will only buy stuff at ridiculously low prices. Where in actual fact BRS members would rather buy things at their LFS when they are offered at the NORMAL going rate

I appreciate your post, and I sure hope this sentiment is true. But the question becomes: what is the normal going rate?

A LFS will never, ever, ever be able to offer goods at a price as low as online vendors.

So what, then, becomes an appropriate price for, say, a yellow tang at a LFS? Going online, I see that they're offered at $24 at Marine Depot and $25 on sale for $17 at Live Aquaria.

Matt

 

[Liam]

I just don't agree with your theory that it is impossible for LFS to compete with online stores.
I feel it is completely possible.Not all online vendors are companies such as Live aquaria that no doubt began business with huge financial backing and were no doubt an "out of the box" large entity. In fact most of the online vendors are no different to any of our LFS they just happen to be in a different part of the country and have decided that it made sense to adapt their business to follow market demand thus becoming more successful,able to turnover larger amounts and therefore buy and sell at lower rates.
So should i feel obligated to buy from somewhere that in my opinion is offering a lesser service or something at a higher price?

I could not agree more that there is a vast difference between some LFS and i will always(and have spent large amounts) of money at some of our LFS.

I also notice that only a couple of our LFS sponsors fully utilize their opportunity to capitalize on the BRS market place so that gives me the impression they really don't view the BRS as a useful market.


So in summary if it is choice of the LFS to conduct business in a manner that makes it impossible to offer the same goods at a lower price then it should be our choice wether or not to shop there.

Oh and does the fact that you don't way to pay a higher price make you a cheaper?
If thats the case i am head cheaper,LOL

 

[dz6t]

>They did ship wrong things but they give you full credit.<

But what do you do with the fish that you didin't want. It's not always easy to give it away. Do you just kill it? NEAq usually won't take either.

They ask you to donate to LFS LOL. I never have a problem to find the fish/coral a new home.

 

[dz6t]

[*]I think the local reefkeeping hobby would suffer terribly without the presence of reputable LFSs in the area.

No, it won't. If you do a poll to see how many coral or fish actually bought from LFS by BRS member or ask the LFS how many business BRS member bring to them, you will get a better idea how things go in real world.

[*]I do believe the loss of LFSs would be detrimental to bringing new people into the hobby.

Sorry, people actually start the hobby by finding Boston Cheapers, which means afforadable reefing. LFS just scare them away or give me bad advice.

[*]Many of these LFSs sponsor the BRS. We don't specifically owe them anything in return, but I do feel we owe them some consideration on the price of their goods, especially since it is mathematically impossible for them to compete with online vendors, and not to slap them in the face.

The real slap on the face is to allow LFS control the BSR.

[*] One example is being able to observe our fish before we buy them and have them held for a period of time to ensure a healthy specimen.

May be one or two stores will do that but they can't do it for everybody. May be you got the nice treatment and your experience do not apply to everyone. Also, if the store do that for everyone, they will go out of business quickly. No store can afford that kind of shopping habbit.

The best customer is the one who walk in the store, do not ask any question, buy the most over priced item and walk away (not returning it later).

Another example is to make sure that our corals have not been photoshopped.

That is not an issue with most reputable on line stores

And finally, a third example is the bulkhead needed in an emergency at 3:00pm on a Saturday.

Funny as it is, do you know how many LFS actually carry bulk heads? Why don't you carry some spare parts for your reef but rely on a LFS to carry it for you? The bulb head that leak should be the same tpye you bought before, why not buy two or three for spare? By the way, this is the time to call for help on this site. Do you think LFS cares about you as much as fellow members?

When you support a LFS, in my opinion, you are supporting a business that makes this hobby possible.

In order tomake this hobby possible, we have to buy on line to save money.

My metaphor from before was the BRS club itself. I think reefkeeping in Bston would suffer terribly without the BRS.

That is true! That is why we need to support ourself by paying membership fee.

 

[seahorse1]

Where in actual fact BRS members would rather buy things at their LFS when they are offered at the NORMAL going rate

agreed I know I would

 

[Matt L.]

I just don't agree with your theory that it is impossible for LFS to compete with online stores. I feel it is completely possible.

I guess we'd have to ask them.

I personally think it is possible for LFSs to come close but not match exactly.

For the record, I have often seen livestock at some of my favourite LFSs sold for the same or less than online.

I could not agree more that there is a vast difference between some LFS and i will always(and have spent large amounts) of money at some of our LFS.

I agree. And that is why I dislike the "all LFSs are evil" mantra,

Matt