LFS vs. Online discussion split from FosterSmith Poll

[Behrmon]

Hey I'm cheap and I admit it, I'm raising 2 kids on my own. But accepting of the fact that on-line purchasing is here to stay can also be seen as a submission that it is here to stay. I rarely find the saying that "you get what you pay for" to not ring true in some form or fashion. I really wonder what will happen with the pricing once the LFS is no longer a source of competition for the on-line vendors.

It's my understanding that some sponsor stores have donated a good bit to the BRS - am I incorrect?? Dong - I don't know you and this is not personal but I must say it did strike me as odd your stance on this re. the sponsor stores while "representing" the BRS. Please don't take that statement the wrong way - just stroke me as odd.

I can't say I will never buy from an on-line vendor but it will be an absolutely last resort. I respect the right of people to make they-re own decision just as I like the mutual respect to make mine BUT I really wish more people would open they-re eyes a bit wider and look a little further down the road at what the end result of loosing the LFS could be - not to imply that they would be gone without the BRS, but most of them are small business that need all the help they can get.

Just my $.01

 

[PenMan]

There was recent post with a member trying to buy a camera on line from three vendors. He not having any luck getting one shipped without buying all of the extras that they wanted to sell. Unless he wanted to add "options such as a camera strap, batttery, lens cover or memory card, the camera was out of stock. Camera stores were fighting this 20 years ago. Mail order house would sell gray market cameras with short warranty and without the normal extras for lower cost than the cost of package to the U.S. dealer.

I like to look at items before buying, and will continue to try to buy local.

 

[rjdudek]

Camera stores were fighting this 20 years ago. ...

...I like to look at items before buying, and will continue to try to buy local.

This is an interesting observation, I can recall the panic that camera shops, book stores and others went through, but I still see all these businesses operating locally. If I recall correctly even the USPS was predicted to be essentially gone by 2005. Each had to go through a development curve to find their marketplace but I cannot think of a single industry that mail order/internet has completely displaced. What I do notice is the shops that have thrived are distinctive in one aspect or another. Have a coffee while you actually browse through the book, come for the free class and use the camera you are interested in.

I agree that there are times that looking at an item in person is really the only good way to make a decision, and I believe if you go to a LFS to do that you really should buy the item from the local market. It is really unfair to use the LFS as a showroom then buy on line.

 

[Andy O]

Interesting (or maybe not so interesting) that a lot of these brick and mortar have taken to on line sales as well. They don't want to miss out on a potential sale. In some instances, I have seen cheaper prices on line for a retailer than had I walked into their store.

 

[marco67]

It is really unfair to use the LFS as a showroom then buy on line.

I had that happen many times, That's the same type of person that will come back for a warrantee issue "but your a dealer of "X" product" That actually happened and it was a BRS member.
Unfortunately that's just part of the game, and fortunately I found that to be outside of the norm.
I think there is a happy medium when it comes to price; as an example you can buy a mag 5 for about $45-$48 online. At FB we were $58. $10-$12 more expensive but before any customer left the store that pump was out of the box, any fittings they might need fit to it, diagrams and notes on whatever they were doing with it discussed.
I call that a better value. Especially for some one new in the hobby

 

[marco67]

In some instances, I have seen cheaper prices on line for a retailer than had I walked into their store.

Of course, you see that in all business. The product they sell online is usually a drop ship, or if not at least sold by an eletcronic transaction, the one on the shelf needed to be bought to be put into inventory and they need to pay someone to be there incase someone wants it.

 

[RichConley]

Had good luck ordering inverts online, and the frag draft went well, but I still think I'll stay local for fish. I go to my LFS for reasons already mentioned.....it's nice not to have to wait a week when your bulhead is leaking.

The kids love to look at the tanks too, and a web page ain't never gonna win out over that.......

I'd love to stay local for fish, but heres the kicker:

Online places guarantee their fish, most from 14-30 days. I can't get that from anywhere around here.

You'd think it would be the other way around.

 

[RichConley]

I agree for the most part fish are priced very competively but the drygoods are normally extremely high.

If you do not like the idea that all LFS are evil mantra(WHICH THEY ARE NOT)
then why start a disscusion pitting LFS v LIVE AQUARIA

Fish competitively priced?

Leopard Wrasses are ~$79 in most of the LFS, Theyre $26 on live aquaria. I was looking at Lubboks fairies a while back because I wanted to put together a harem. The cheapest I could get from an LFS was $45 each. They were $19.99 on Marinecenter, Marinedepotlive, and Live aquaria. I got my hawkfish for $8. The Lfs wanted $30+. When I wanted a melanarus, I paid $24. I was looking at $60 from an LFS. Clowns, the LFS wants $25 each, I got mine for $8.


How is that even remotely competitive? Especially considering that none of the Tier 1 sponsors guarantee any of their fish (its funny, considering all the flak they catch, that TI is the only sponsor who does guarantee fish) and all the Online places do.


I REALLY want to give my money to the LFS instead of the online places, but cmon, you have to do something to justify it. Like put a stay-alive guarantee on your fish.

 

[mloebl]

I don't always think price is an issue (but it is a part of it.) Not sure about other people, but I'd gladly pay a little more if I know I'm getting a better end value from the purchase. For example when buying something online, I may spend 5 - 10% more on items just because they come from a trusted vendor rather than "Mike's Discount Shack". I know at least with the better name and past good service I'm more apt to buy from them if I know if I have a problem I can get it easily resolved. Dr FS for example I have had great CSR when returning a defective unit; they'll pay s/h back AND ship the replacement before returning old unit if it breaks within their warranty period. I do occasionally buy some supplies and fish from LFS when their prices are close like in Marco's example on the pumps; I'd probably be paying around that in shipping anyways so it's not too bad of a deal to get it locally especially from a trusted source.

Another factor is convenience (or laziness )... Sometimes with the online vendors I do like the fact I can just order something whether livestock or supplies, and have it delivered to my house or even work rather than having to drive somewhere and hope they have x,y,z in stock. Yes I could call ahead to the LFS, but logistically I'm sure if everyone did that, they'd probably get a little irritated by the phone running off the hook especially if they had to go running around to see what they may have.


-Mike

 

[dz6t]

I want to make it clear that I did not start the debate of online vs. LFS. I was organizing a pooled order from LiveAquaria and someone barged in and gave us a thumbs down by not using LFS.

Also, please note that some of our sponsors are NOT LFS including the one who offered to match LiveAquaria's price (A big thanks to this sponsor even though we can not utilize the offer as we are ording more than just B&W clown fish).

 

[Liam]

Fish competitively priced?

Leopard Wrasses are ~$79 in most of the LFS, Theyre $26 on live aquaria. I was looking at Lubboks fairies a while back because I wanted to put together a harem. The cheapest I could get from an LFS was $45 each. They were $19.99 on Marinecenter, Marinedepotlive, and Live aquaria. I got my hawkfish for $8. The Lfs wanted $30+. When I wanted a melanarus, I paid $24. I was looking at $60 from an LFS. Clowns, the LFS wants $25 each, I got mine for $8.


How is that even remotely competitive? Especially considering that none of the Tier 1 sponsors guarantee any of their fish (its funny, considering all the flak they catch, that TI is the only sponsor who does guarantee fish) and all the Online places do.


I REALLY want to give my money to the LFS instead of the online places, but cmon, you have to do something to justify it. Like put a stay-alive guarantee on your fish.

And i could give you a list just as long of fish i've bought that were cheaper at the LFS than online,and of course don't forget shipping.If you are buying only one fish i doubt any one of the fish you listed would end up being cheaper online.
Granted if you are ordering several fish it is worthwhile,or on occasion a hard to find specimen fish can be way cheaper on line.

 

[Andy O]

And i could give you a list just as long of fish i've bought that were cheaper at the LFS than online,and of course don't forget shipping.If you are buying only one fish i doubt any one of the fish you listed would end up being cheaper online.

I agree with this. I have purchased various livestock at AG that I now for a fact was at least the same price if not less expensive, and that was without figuring in the added shipping charge. It all depends on the price that the retailer can purchase the livestock for and how much they need to mark it up.

 

[Alex]

Now I'm not attacking anyone here but it seems that the support you?re local LFS because it's a local LFS just doesn't hold water. It really comes down to simple micro economics. People will pay for what they want. If you feel that the LFS is offering you a service that makes the price markup reasonable then you will spend your money there. If you feel like the guarantees and selection offered by online stores will offer you more then you will shop online. Paying more to local stores just to keep them in business is a losing proposition. It will inflate prices higher than their actual equilibrium where the supply of one service or product meets that demand at that price. If they can't stay in business on their own merits then they shouldn't be in business in the first place. If a business has found a way to offer cheaper prices thru either generating new revenues as is the case for most of these online stores that are actually just LFS that have used the internet to reach a new customer base or a large internet company that can take advantage of economies of scale than that benefit is passed on to the customer.

The idea that once all the big bad internet companies stomp out all the small guys we will be at their mercy also holds no water what so ever. If all the local stores were to go out of business and the online venders raised their prices guess what happens. As soon as there is a profit in it again for the local shops new ones would start popping up. That is the beauty of a free market and that is truly American.

The strength of the American economy over the years has been our ability to be on the leading end of change. Part of this is due to the freedoms that this country offers and part of it I like to think is the strength that comes from the blend of people that makes up this country. If business doesn't adapt they aren't in business. Local LFS have many advantages over internet companies, if they choose not to leverage them that is honestly their fault. Personally I think that if they are offering quality products at reasonable prices with good service they will still get business. I know they would still get all my impulse buys.

 

[mloebl]

Personally I think that if they are offering quality products at reasonable prices with good service they will still get business. I know they would still get all my impulse buys.

Well said.

-Mike

 

[RichConley]

I agree with this. I have purchased various livestock at AG that I now for a fact was at least the same price if not less expensive, and that was without figuring in the added shipping charge. It all depends on the price that the retailer can purchase the livestock for and how much they need to mark it up.

I, for one, have never seen anything in Aquarium Gallery (and I love the store) that isnt significantly more expensive than their competitors. Umm,. $350-$500 mystery wrasses anyone? Maybe I'm going in on the wrong days.


Again, it comes down to this: If you wont give me a guarantee, you have to get me the fish cheaper.

If you feel that your fish are healthier than we can get them online, put your money where your mouth is, and offer a guarantee, otherwise, you're asking me to take a risk. When I buy online, I get the same product, for cheaper, at less risk.

Its all about Value. If you can't beat them on price, you need to beat them somewhere else to make up for the extra cost I'm paying. In my mind, the way to do that is by guaranteeing fish, etc.

Its like ADW said, I will not support a place just for the sake of supporting them. They have to offer me greater value than their competitors. I still do a lot of buying at LFS, but its mostly impulse buy stuff.

 

[Andy O]

I, for one, have never seen anything in Aquarium Gallery (and I love the store) that isnt significantly more expensive than their competitors. Umm,. $350-$500 mystery wrasses anyone? Maybe I'm going in on the wrong days.

I purchased a super male linneatus wrasse from them (although it was not cheap) and the price that I paid was less than I had found it for on line. Neon gobies were cheaper than I had found on line as well. I have also seen specimans at AG that were similar in price to similar specimans on LA (mind you there are possible distinctions that you may not be able to see in LA's photograph).

It very well could be possible that you are going in on the wrong days. I'm sure as you are aware you could have 2 fish that are exactly the same at a LFS which were purchased 2 weeks apart yet one could be $15 more than the other. It all comes down to market price and what the wholesalers are charging the LFS.

Also, figure in the shipping charge which on average could be $30/$35, and if you are only looking for one speciman and the on line price adds up quickly. What if I am only looking for a $40 fish and then after shipping it costs me $70?

I agree that as a whole LFS are usually more expensive but don't agree with this as a blanket statement. As mentioned previously, you need to consider the whole package of what you are getting for the price.

At the end of the day if you can live with what you paid than that is all that really matters. There really shouldn't even be a debate on this. If you want to buy from a LFS than do so or if you want to buy online then do that. My guess is that everyone who has posted here feels pretty strongly about their postion and will continue with their current purchasing habits regardless of what all of us say.

 

[Liam]

I, for one, have never seen anything in Aquarium Gallery (and I love the store) that isnt significantly more expensive than their competitors. Umm,. $350-$500 mystery wrasses anyone? Maybe I'm going in on the wrong days.


Again, it comes down to this: If you wont give me a guarantee, you have to get me the fish cheaper.

If you feel that your fish are healthier than we can get them online, put your money where your mouth is, and offer a guarantee, otherwise, you're asking me to take a risk. When I buy online, I get the same product, for cheaper, at less risk.

Its all about Value. If you can't beat them on price, you need to beat them somewhere else to make up for the extra cost I'm paying. In my mind, the way to do that is by guaranteeing fish, etc.

Its like ADW said, I will not support a place just for the sake of supporting them. They have to offer me greater value than their competitors. I still do a lot of buying at LFS, but its mostly impulse buy stuff.

And i just bought a pair of purple firefish and a cryptic sixline at AG for less than any online price and believe me i looked.
I am not saying there are not differences if you read my previous post that you quoted me on you will see that i said for the most part i did not make a blanket statement.
And you are still not mentioning shipping at $30-$50 plus box charges in some cases.

Maybe they jack the prices up when they see you coming

 

[Matt L.]

Now I'm not attacking anyone here but it seems that the support you’re local LFS because it's a local LFS just doesn't hold water.

The argument that some consideration should be given to a reputable LFS, in my opinion, requires envisioning a broader picture of the hobby.

Many people want to see only dollar signs when comparing a LFS to an online vendor. As I said before, I know there are people in this club who will buy a fish online for $19.99 because the LFS is selling it for $20. And you know what, at the end of the day, nothing anyone says or does will change that.

Someone once told me years ago that the hobbysit is in the middle of a triangle. The three points of the triangle are the body of expert knowledge, the local fish club, and the (reputable) local vendor. If you remove any of those points, you lose the ability to succeed long-term in the hobby.

LFS proponents argue that the online vendor is an incomplete substitute for the LFS.

I was chiding Dong a few pages back about this very point. I noticed in his signiature that he implores people to support the BRS, and rightly so. As Dong would say, this is the club that supports your hobby. And the club is one of three corners of the triangle.

I turned to Dong, and posed a hypothetical. I asked him, as membership chair: why should I pay my dues to the BRS? Can't I get everything I need for free from the club? I mean, I don't have to pay to post here. I don't have to pay to trade with people. So why should I pay my dues? Even if the BRS could no longer afford to operate, I could still go over to the RC message board, right? The answer is: such an attitude would be incredibly short-sighted of me. Even if I could get everything I need for less, the hobby would suffer. If I had an emergency at 3AM, no one except the BRS would help me.

In closing, for those who feel the reputable LFS is completely unnecessary, and that the BRS should offer them zero consideration, I ask you to think of someone who has been in this hobby a long time. Think of someone who you look up to. And ask them how they feel about giving at least some consideration to LFSs.

Matt

 

[rjdudek]

Liam, you are absolutely correct, the shipping on a single fish would kill virtually any deal, but if your on a group buy or buying several it starts to make more fiscal responsibility (to coin a phrase). Oh, and yes there is a local store that bases it's pricing on day of the week, color of the sky and if Mars is rising. In a single visit I have seen the same LPS be given 3 prices in over a $35 range.

To the thread:

I can't even imagine the total number of ways a store could offer a stay alive guarantee
In just a few moments of thinking:

Straight offer in price
Pro rate on days alive
100% if we test the water before you buy
50% if we test the water after you buy
14 days if you join the “support the LFS Inc. club” only a nickel, ninty-eight
10 days for BRS members (Many ways to tie this to sponsorship, premium membership, etc.)
Insurance - e.g. 10% of the price of the fish buys you X number of days
14 days if you use my salt and my food
30 days if you use LFS Inc. tank care service
1 hour if you use Marc Weiss products
2 fish guarantees per year / per person

This is just a matter of thinking about your customers emotional desires rather than just their spoken needs. People want to feel secure in their purchases and it is what we are paying the premium price for when we use brick and mortar shops.

 

[marco67]

For you online shoppers,
What happens when you receive a fish with Ich shipping stress etc,,, You all have a QT set up and practice a strict inspection and isolation period right?
If not what do you do? Risk it and just tank him? Destroy him?