A little Reality check...Being cheap doesn't help anyone

[smcnally]

So I figured since I got stood up on my corals and that since nobody seemed to offer any reasonable prices that I would bring them to a store for credit. I called 3 stores and none of them would take any of my SPS, and only one would even offer to give me credit for the anemones/mushrooms. One store explained to me why, and I can't say I blame him. He told me that he will not take any SPS corals because a large percentage of reefers are cheap. He said that they trade and sell amongst themselves for so cheap, that he has to keep his stock low. He then said "And on top of that, a lot of people still lowball the reefers that are selling the stuff for fair prices so there's virtually no market for them at my store".

That right there speaks for itself. It's becoming a trend in this hobby (not just this club) where people really don't appreciate what people put into their tanks in order for their corals to grow to the point of being propagated. I notice a LOT of people asking for stuff for free and a lot of people actually give it to them. Yes, it is good to "spread the wealth", but like kids, new reefers will not learn to appreciate this stuff unless they first learn that it is not cheap and that it is worth paying fair prices for. The sad thing is I've always noticed it to an extent, but not fully until I put a large number of things up for sale.

If it sounds like I'm upset, it's because I am...But I'll stop before I say some things that might piss some people off

 

[S Hunter]

I've always looked at it like this, i feel everyone needs to make a living, so i dont mind paying the price, i just dont want to set them up for life either, if you know what i mean...

 

[Brewmaster]

I'll take your corals for free!!!

JK, there are a lot of cheap reefers out there. Reason being this hobby is not cheap!

 

[smcnally]

I'll take your corals for free!!!

JK, there are a lot of cheap reefers out there. Reason being this hobby is not cheap!

I agree. I just wanted to share what I was told so those that are cheap can see what it is doing to the hobby. Maybe (but I doubt) it will make them think next time they want something. I personally see nothing wrong with swapping frags, and I'm not even really pissed that I'm stuck with 3 tubs full of of corals that nobody seems to want right now. It is also a very slow time of year for the hobby which is why I understand things not selling, but during this time of year you also see peoples true colors when they lowball prices that are already fair because they know most people would take anything rather than throw it away.

 

[TomD]

I agree Steve. I can tell you that for a reefer that has only been in the hobby a year, I appreciate how much corals cost Trust me

 

[Behrmon]

Well wanting them and being able to afford them are two different stories. I myself am prob one of the many who financially should not be in this hobby. I spend a lot of time w/ my tank and care for it a good bit. I have never offered a low ball price to any one or ever asked for anything for free but I am guilty of jumping on a good deal, honestly who wouldn't. I do still support my LFS though and never buy online what I can get from my LFS.

 

[smcnally]

Nothing wrong with jumping on a good deal. I too am one that barely can afford this hobby but I've done the same as you. I always pay what the person is asking more or less out of respect for that person. If the person is asking too much, I just pass on it.

 

[chew*]

Steve I agree to a certain extent however there are the situations that have caused people to become like this. For instance someone goes and buy some tyree LE frag for top dollar and than grows it as quick as possible to sell a frag of it for what he paid then continues to do so over a period of time.

This is just a get rich quick scheme imo, If i pay $60 for something I plan to have it awhile If i frag it i sell it for $10 a pop, why because I will probably frag the thing 6 times down the line.

The other parties will sell the same frag for $60 6 times. This isn't helping another reefer out, and whats worse is if your selling the same frag cheap they will PM you saying stuff like why are you cutting my throat with a low price I can't sell my stuff that low, and possibly threaten you.

In the "real world" they charge drug dealers with a "protecting your empire" charge for that .

I have however experienced the same "cheap" people but its very simple to deal with. "NO" For Instance someone offered me $40 for a 2 month old mag 7 I was willing to sell for $50 which is a very low price, My reply " I'd rather hit it with a hammer" straight forward to the point and he got the message.

ALso might add my extent to being cheap is If I like quite a few things I will PM the person with a list of 5+ corals, I will say hey This is what I'd like, can you work out a package deal. Most of the time I end up shelling out well over $100-200. If its just 1 thing and It's a fair price I pay it.

I think everyone here that has either bought or sold something to me can say I have been quite fair and not the type of person to waste someones time.

 

[richardong]

Nothing wrong with jumping on a good deal. I too am one that barely can afford this hobby but I've done the same as you. I always pay what the person is asking more or less out of respect for that person. If the person is asking too much, I just pass on it.

Very well said Steve. Its how I feel exactly.

 

[smcnally]

"NO" For Instance someone offered me $40 for a 2 month old mag 7 I was willing to sell for $50 which is a very low price, My reply " I'd rather hit it with a hammer" straight forward to the point and he got the message.

LOL...That is right up there with when I said I'd rather pee on my live rock and throw it in the back yard than let it go for less than $2 per lb

 

[chew*]

O btw steve everything that I was interested in that you were selling went quick and I was low on funds at the time so I didn't waste your time.

 

[randoma]

Steve, is the point of having your tank so that you can have sell stuff? Or is the point of having your tank so that you can enjoy the tank?

To put it another way, if your hobby was golf, would you expect to get good value for your used golf clubs? Your old golf clubs? Yeah, they're still perfectly good, they might even be top of the line, but you're probably not going to sell them for anything like what they'd cost retail.

Of course, that probably seems perfectly reasonable to you because somehow, you are the one that got to play golf. You got value out of the equipment.

Why does it seem like many reefers seem to view their tanks as "investments"? Is anyone else getting the same enjoyment out of the tank as you? Yeah, you could say that you have a lot of time and effort/energy invested into your new setup so it should be worth more. But, it seems to me that you're the one that is getting enjoyment/pleasure/reward from the effort!

I used to spend a lot of time driving cars at various race tracks around the country. My cost for doing so used to run between $600-1,000 PER DAY, and I did all my own mechanic work, used used equipment, camped instead of hotels..etc. The high dollar guys, if you include investment of equipment (cars, trailers..etc.) probably spend multiple thousands PER DAY. Yet, no one, in that hobby, ever says that the other drivers are ruining the hobby because no one wants to pay top dollar for used equipment...

 

[TomD]

LOL...That is right up there with when I said I'd rather pee on my live rock and throw it in the back yard than let it go for less than $2 per lb

Lol, now I think I understand your anger better. I have said similar things a bunch of times being low balled. But, I don't think it is the hobby, I think it is humans in general.

I sold a planted f/w setup because I was becoming more consumed with the reef and getting ready to upgrade about 10 months ago. It was a complete setup and a guy from Craigslist and I had it all worked out for $300, including all livestock. I got everything ready to go and when he got here he lowballed me. I had already drained the tank and everything. I wound up selling it to him for $200 just because I needed it gone but I had some words with him...almost decked him! He even tried to get me to cut 50% after he was at my house...AFTER agreeing to the sale.

 

[smcnally]

Steve, is the point of having your tank so that you can have sell stuff? Or is the point of having your tank so that you can enjoy the tank?

To put it another way, if your hobby was golf, would you expect to get good value for your used golf clubs? Your old golf clubs? Yeah, they're still perfectly good, they might even be top of the line, but you're probably not going to sell them for anything like what they'd cost retail.

Of course, that probably seems perfectly reasonable to you because somehow, you are the one that got to play golf. You got value out of the equipment.

Why does it seem like many reefers seem to view their tanks as "investments"? Is anyone else getting the same enjoyment out of the tank as you? Yeah, you could say that you have a lot of time and effort/energy invested into your new setup so it should be worth more. But, it seems to me that you're the one that is getting enjoyment/pleasure/reward from the effort!

I used to spend a lot of time driving cars at various race tracks around the country. My cost for doing so used to run between $600-1,000 PER DAY, and I did all my own mechanic work, used used equipment, camped instead of hotels..etc. The high dollar guys, if you include investment of equipment (cars, trailers..etc.) probably spend multiple thousands PER DAY. Yet, no one, in that hobby, ever says that the other drivers are ruining the hobby because no one wants to pay top dollar for used equipment...

I have no idea where you got that from? I never said people should pay top dollar. I said people should be willing to pay a fair price and not constantly try to low ball people. Half of the for sale threads operate like a bazaar over in Suadi Arabia where people constanly haggle prices and, sometimes in a rude manner. Some people do try to make small businesses out of it, and I could really care less...if they charge too much, I'll get it elsewhere. I would say, however, that selling corals is far different to selling used golf clubs. It would be more on par with raising orchids or other plants and then selling them. Part of what pisses me off is that I'm never out to make a big profit off of what I sell. In fact, I usually sell frags for close to 1/2 of what I paid for my original frag.

 

[smcnally]

BTW everyone...I'm really not that upset about all of this...this was more or less a rant from a guy that got 3 hours of sleep last night and woke up to a condo that smelled (actually still smells) like low tide. But what that store owner told me struck a chord and I thought people should see how it is affecting local stores.

 

[Jim Tansey]

I have only offered items a couple of times for sale on this site, the experience was mind boggling, just to keep it short the item is sold when the person actually shows up as arranged and pays the agreed price. I have more respect for myself and others, thankfully, than to act that way.

Jim

 

[JeremyR]

We have generally always given credit for corals that we regularly sell, but there are certainly some things that we almost never take (xenia, brown montipora, pocillopora.. etc). This time of year tho we have said no to several people just because it's alot slower in the summer, and besides the normal reefers wanting to trade stuff in there are the usual number of summer breakdowns which puts product back into the market.

It is also true that SPS corals are getting harder to sell at a retail level, and certainly some kinds of them are not worth stocking in any quantity like bali slimer or the above mentioned corals.

 

[nickyblase]

I think there is a very important point being missed here - when you are buying something from a fellow reefer's tank, it (usually) means that it has succeeded in captivity. You don't have to worry about shipping stress, etc. I know there is the periodic anomaly, but for the most part I find this to be true.

IMO, the chances of something thriving in your tank is much better if it's aquacultured from another reefer. That in and of itself is worth it's weight in gold.

I have never haggled a price, nor will I. If it's not what I would consider a good VALUE (i.e. reasonable price for decent item), I will simply not buy it. I will not insult the reefer or embarrass myself that way.

Equipment and dry goods, are a different story, because there's a certain amount of depreciation involved with it's use. Livestock just simply isn't the same.

 

[MisFit]

Let me first state that I believe that the haggling on this site is sometimes ridiculous and showing up at someone’s house and then low balling them after their tanks are drained with corals fragged up and bagged is completely despicable. However, a person giving away free or cheap frags really doesn’t hurt anyone except people trying to sell off their corals or LFS selling SPS. In fact, I think it does more good than bad.
- Having more corals that are propagated in hobbyist tanks and passed around leads to less pressure on wild populations.
- Allows more people to obtain and maintain corals that they otherwise would not be able to afford.
- Decreases the "exclusivity" of the reef hobby. It shouldn’t be a rich person only hobby.
- Exposes more people, especially young people to reef keeping which in turn produces more adults who care about our world’s oceans and reefs.

Many aquarists and coral reef scientists were kids who had reef tanks they started with cheap corals that they propagated and traded with others (me being one of them). If these kids did not have access to cheap corals, how would they learn to care for their tanks and in turn dedicate their lives to science and education while making no money? Our public aquariums are maintained by people who make LESS than $30,000 a year, in fact most start around $24,000 and are lucky if they even get a yearly cost of living increase. How many privileged kids are going to work for so little? Pretty much none of the people I know working in public aquariums came from great means which is why they are content with making no money. If you ever take a behind the scenes tour at an aquarium you will find most of the equipment is DIY style, because that’s how the people working there did it when they were young and learning. If we didn’t have cheap people we wouldn’t have a lot of the innovation in this hobby. We wouldn’t have Randy's recipe, or many of our DIY equipment.

As far as the bad? Maybe it hurts the LFS a little, but as you have seen they just stop offering SPS, and that’s probably a good thing. In my opinion we shouldn't be collecting much more live rock and corals from the oceans. We should propagate what is already in our tanks. All of my rock, corals and fish were "tank raised".

With all of that said, I will repeat that it is in poor form to low ball and constantly haggle with people who are selling items with set prices. If you don’t like the price, don’t buy it. If you agree to a price, don’t try to drop the price after you show up, that’s just wrong. But I think for the most part, people do realize what it takes to propagate corals, and I do hope that they appreciate it.

I do feel for you though Steve, it obviously sucks to have invested so much into the corals that you are trying to get rid of and not be able to sell them at a fair price. I do hope that you are able to sell off what you have as it seems that your prices were very reasonable.

 

[Bobbofin]

I have gotten my corals several ways. First, I have purchased them. I have spent thousands on corals in the last 17 years. About half of my corals I have now have come from fellow reefers. About 75% of one's from from reefers I have paid a nominal amount for, $10-20 which I do not mind doing, upkeep on a reef tank is expensive. Nashlake a fellow reefer gave me a 6 head frogspawn at a meeting for free and refused money. He said it had 42 heads and had to be trimmed down. I also have received small frags for free also.
This hobby is expensive no doubt. One look at the boards a week before a meeting and you will see the selling and swapping threads. With so many people selling acro frags for so cheap at meetings of course it's going drive down the price. I've talked to several new BRS members who have gotten most of their corals at meetings for nominal cost. This is great that we are helping out new comers but do they then have an unrealistic opinion about what things really cost. Several months ago I paid $75 for a piece of frogspawn at AG with green stocks and purple tips. It is an awesome coral but are most reefer willing to pay top dollar for nice pieces or would they rather wait until the meeting and see what they can get for cheap?