Adding large water reservoir to system

[~Flighty~]

Hi everyone. I'm thinking about adding a large water reservoir to my system.

I was thinking of something along the lines of this one
-625 Gallon 64 x 50 $350.26
from this page
- http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=32&product%5Fid=4293#


Anyone have something like this?

For a system with room I see lots of benefits and few drawbacks
-Stability of all parameters including temp salinity and calc etc.
-dilution of bad stuff

potential bad-
-Need to clean? Not sure on this aspect
-Water changes would have little impact (offset by the dilution of pollutants)
-Cost- Salt and the reservoir itself, pretty low costs actually.


Any thoughts?

 

[NateHanson]

Do you think heating it would cost a lot in the winter?

 

[Mini4x]

Wouldn't you want something more accesable? full removeable top, to clean, then you can put sand/rocks/stuff in it?

 

[~Flighty~]

Do you think heating it would cost a lot in the winter?

I was planning to insulate it, so I didn't think it would significantly add to the heat loss in the system.

Wouldn't you want something more accessible? full removable top, to clean, then you can put sand/rocks/stuff in it?

No rock or sand or anything in it, just water. No extra evaporation from it either was the plan. I will still have the 100g stock tank and 75g refugium for extra rock, equipment, sand, and macro



An example similar idea on a grander scale
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=83

 

[starrfish]

Cindy - I think that sounds like a great idea. I have ordered from US Plastics before - 55 gallon drums and Tamco drums. They are very reliable and have good customer service. I highly recommend them. I think a huge volume of water like that will definitely help to stabilize the water quality. It will cost more for salt, but you probably won't have to do water changes as frequently. You could make it so that the large drum can be shut off from the rest of the system for feedings, treatments, etc.

 

[aweeks95]

i too think it sounds good, given you have the room and means to house it. i would think you wouldn't have to do a huge water change either or much at all....also if you kept some high flow with in the reservoir detrious (sp.) couldn't settle on the bottom, via a strong powerhead or something along those lines.

keep us posted on your ideas and let see how things work out, maybe a new trend here!!??

ANDY

 

[~Flighty~]

Cindy - I think that sounds like a great idea. I have ordered from US Plastics before - 55 gallon drums and Tamco drums. They are very reliable and have good customer service. I highly recommend them. I think a huge volume of water like that will definitely help to stabilize the water quality. It will cost more for salt, but you probably won't have to do water changes as frequently. You could make it so that the large drum can be shut off from the rest of the system for feedings, treatments, etc.

Hmmm Shutoff is a great idea. I was thinking of one of the v bottomed containers to prevent settling, but the cost is much higher. I may just plan on siphening the bottom ocationally somehow.

 

[NateHanson]

I'd worry about it collecting sediment, extra food, detritus, etc. Especially if there's rock in there. I blew off my rock regularly, and it's amazing how much detritus can get trapped in there. I'd worry about not having access to that big of a rock/water tank. Seems like it could be trouble.

As for a Vee bottom, you could easily adapt something to keep most of the crud settling in one place.


Nate

 

[~Flighty~]

No rock in the big reservoir, just water I have also thought of having some sort of particulate catcher or filter before the reservoir. I wouldn't need high turnover in and out of it.

 

[marco67]

did you consider the impact it would have on skimmer and reactor sizing? Don't forget fish or no fish you still have to process that water.

 

[Matt L.]

Cindy,

My concern is that the vessel is closed.

The reasoning for adding a reservoir to your tank is to effectively create a bigger tank without changing the tank you currently have. If the turnover rate through the vessel is rapid enough (hydraulic retention time is short enough), then yes, there would essentially be no difference between your system (120gal tank + 625gal vessel = 845gal! total) and a signle tank equal to the size of your tank and the vessel (845gal).

However, you haven't created an 845gal tank of normal proportions. Our tanks are usually wide and shallow so as to permit oxygenation. However, as the vessel is tall and closed, there will be little to no oxygenation taking place. In fact, the oxygen demand of your water might wind up lowering the dissolved oxygen level once it enters the vessel. The way to imagine this is that you have a packet of water. As this packet travels to the main tank, it gets oxygenated as it is mixed around, and it certainly gets a great deal of oxygen when it enters the skimmer. However, as this packet of water is active, containing all sorts of microorganisms, it is constantly reducing the level of oxygen within that packet. When the packet enters your vessel, the microorganisms will consume the oxygen in the packet, but the packet will have a hard time replacing that oxygen. Therefore, my chief concern is oxygen.

My second concern is whether you now size your equipment and water changes for 845gal, or 120gal. You will never exceed a 120gal stocking capacity, but you still have 845gal of water. Will your calcium reactor function properly. How about your skimmer? Also, you will have vastly increased evaporation losses.

USPlastic is a reputable place to order from. I do recommend them, even though they keep sending me this hoakey religious pamphlet with my order, and I keep calling them up every time and tell them not to bother witht he next order.... Make sure that the vessel is not too large to require motor freight, as the shipping cost will increase vastly,

Matt

 

[~Flighty~]

So the issues so far are : evaporation, calcium and other minerals, skimming, detritus accumulation, heating, O2, water changes, and religious pamphlets from supplier .

Evaporation- should not increase. remember, I am using a closed (or nearly so) container, so evap should be unchanged. This is a good thing. If the system loses 3 gal a day it will effect salinity minimally even if my topoff breaks. The down side to this is if cooling is needed. Evaporative cooling won't work, but I'll get to that in heat.

Calc and minerals- the amount used by the system should be about the same (unless there is something that grows in the dark that uptakes a lot of something). Other than needing to get the initial 625 gal up to proper levels, it shouldn't require extra anything. The exception would be things that break down in the water without being taken up by livestock (iodine maybe?). Calc reactor should run at the same rate though and the levels will be more steady.

Skimming- The skimmer should have the identical amount of cr@p to pull out. It may run less efficiently because the poop will be diluted, but that is a good thing. It would be like stocking a 100g tank with the fish from a 10g nano.

Detritus accumulation- I will be running the reservoir with no rocks or sand or anything, so it should be easy to eliminate dead spots and siphon if needed. I may also mechanically filter the water going in to help this problem. Stuff growing in there may be a problem or maybe a good thing. What would grow? Sponges, filter feeders, aptasia? All good water cleaners...
Anyone see this?:Hidden Sponges Determine Coral Reef's Nutrient Cycle

To be continued...

 

[~Flighty~]

So the issues so far are : evaporation, calcium and other minerals, skimming, detritus accumulation, heating, O2, water changes

Heating and cooling- I will be insulating the container so in theory it will be a big heat sink. The heating and cooling of the tank from lights, evaporation, conduction etc will effect the temp of the water less. If you are putting in X amount of watts from lighting, pumps etc and it normally raises the water temp one degree it should only raise the larger volume some fraction of a degree. Problem would be if I do need to lower the temp of the whole system. In that case maybe I could remove the insulation and cool the basement room with an AC unit, then let conduction do its job. My gut says that a large heat sink like 625 additional gallons would make temp regulation easier.

The O2 issue is interesting. From the recent tests on O2 in reef tanks and different methods of effecting them I would guess that it wouldn't be that big of an issue. Water from the reservoir would go into the sump and be mixed with the supersaturated skimmer water and the supersaturated display return water before going back up to the display. If it appears to be a problem I suppose I could add an air intake to the water coming out of the reservoir somehow.

Water changes- I would likely not change the volume of water I change regularly. I guess that would be bad, but I'm not sure why or how bad. (ideas?) It would definitely be bad in the event of something really going wrong and needing to change a large percentage of the water at once, but the reservoir could be taken offline in that event. For regular water changes my gut says that the benefits of dilution and stability would vastly outweigh the drawback of smaller percentage changes. What do you guys think on that?

 

[~Flighty~]

Should be 120 display + 625 reservoir + ~80sump and plumbing + 75 refugium = around 900 gallons


Crazy or brilliant? Keep the ideas coming

Any ideas what to search for on RC to find other experiences with this type of scheme?

 

[dedfish]

You could always run big air pump and a handfull of airstones in the reservoir.

 

[JamisonSmith]

RE. Large water reservoir

I always thought that the purpose for most folks to add such a large reservoir into the mix of their 'normal' equipment was:

1. to have a storage container for their RO so as to not have to wait for their RO to catch up to their needs, or,
2. to have a storage container for new saltwater to have readily available mixed, ready to go salt water for a quick water change if necessary.

It doesn't seem to make much sense to use that type of storage container to expand the holding capabilities of your total system.

I guess though, you could use it for whatever you see the most benefit of use to be.

 

[joefitz]

I like it. Of course, I've been talking about the same thing myself. I agree with all of your points Cindy. I think temperature regulation becomes easier, not harder. I think there are very few downsides to it, although I'm not entirely sure how big the upside really is either. My hunch is that it will help and possibly a lot depending upon what you are keeping.

If anything goes drastically wrong in the tank then you have two things: 1) it would have been 10x worse in a smaller water volume and 2) you can disconnect the reservoir, start changing the water in the main system and then replace the reservoir when you can... So even that isn't a disadvantage.

Think the o2 comment is good to consider but not likely to be a problem.

Water changes...well, that is a cost and time issue. I think more water with fewer changes is probably overall much better than small water volume with more changes. I believe consistency is key and more water, in my estimation, seems to be a much better way to achieve consistency.

I also recommend a couple 55g drums for water storage/changes as JamisonSmith pointed out. ;-) Bec has a great system worked out...

Do it!

 

[~Flighty~]

The main reason for me would be stability of salinity and temp and avoiding any other rapid parameter changes. I really don't see a downside, but I may be being shortsighted. There may be an issue with the small percentage water changes that I am not considering.

 

[maurod]

You could always run big air pump and a handfull of airstones in the reservoir.

I have visions of a 650 gal skimmer

M.

 

[Matt L.]

...The O2 issue is interesting. From the recent tests on O2 in reef tanks and different methods of effecting them I would guess that it wouldn't be that big of an issue. Water from the reservoir would go into the sump and be mixed with the supersaturated skimmer water and the supersaturated display return water before going back up to the display. If it appears to be a problem I suppose I could add an air intake to the water coming out of the reservoir somehow...

Remember, the concentration of oxygen in water can change much more rapidly than the concentration of nitrate or calcium. Yes, oxygen is dissolved like any other susbtance, but each unit volume of water in a reef tank has a hunger for oxygen (called the oxygen demand), and each unit volume of water can only pick up oxygen by (equilibrating with a neighbouring unit volume of water or) contacting atmospheric oxygen. My fear of such a closed vessel is that the oxygen would be rapidly depleted inside and have insufficient surface area with which to exchange. Depending on how much oxygen demand there is in a unit volume of water, you may need some serious aeration. An experiment could be performed to determine this, but not at home,

Matt