Basement sump to 1st floor tank plumbing questions

[nickoz]

I am setting up a 150g (60x24x24) with two overflows, 1x1in drains and 1x3/4 returns in each. I am going to use a Dolphin Ampmaster 3000 for the return. From my research I was planning on increasing the 1.5in connections on the Ampmaster to 2in for the return and then T'ing to 2x 3/4in returns. Likewise I was planning on T'ing the 1in drains to a 2in drain back to the sump.

Based on the RC head loss calc I determined that given the amount of head pressure, number of 90s, 45s and unions I will have ~1400GPH.

Does this sound appropriate? Anyone else have a similar setup, what does your plumbing look like?

This is my first tank with a floor between the tank and the sump. Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
-nick

 

[jacqur]

Wow, I have a similar setup. I have a 125g 6' tank. I run a dolphin 5600 HP from my basement floor to an oceanmotion 4-way. It is my only circulation source so I went with a bigger pump to handle the head loss efficiently. I have the 2" inlet directly from my sump(Rubbermaid stock tank) and the 2" discharge through the floor. Then I reduce into a 2x1.5x1.5 PVC "Y" fitting. I have a 1.5" bypass around the ocean motion and then (4) 1" discharges to the top of my tank via the OM. I figure about 3000gpm at the tank. I have adapted my 125g AGA overflows to all be returns. 1" and a 3/4" return on each of the 2 corner overflows. I have also enlarged the overflow comb by cutting every two slots and leaving one. Then gluing some gutter guard over the gap.

My experiences - basement is great way to do it if your situation allows.

Reason #1 - makes fish tank virtually silent.
Reason #2 - Helps keep temperature down. Big help if you are running halides.
Reason #3 - I don't mind making a mess in the basement. No carpets, etc. to worry about when playing around in fuge, sump, frag tank, Kalc dosing, reactors, etc.

I'd be happy to talk to you about the setup if you want. I also recommend purchasing a swing check valve and installing right above the pump and ball valves before the discharges. Swing check prevents a siphoning event from tank to sump to floor.

I love the Dolphin pump.

 

[DLCanuck]

You should stay at three quarter inch all the way; at the pump you should use a one inch gate valve and above the valve use a one inch check valve. It give less restrict flow and use only 45 degree elbows only (two together to make a 90 degree turn)except the two return at the top of the tank. Put a union coupling first and gate valve in front of the inlet of the pump. In case you need to service the pump you can shut the valve instead of draining the sump. Also a union coupling on tops the pump too. I have done a lot of setup from the basement.

 

[DLCanuck]

I have a Gen-X 4 pump that feed the 210 gallon tank up stairs. The 210 gallon tank has on over flow in side. I took the other one out because you can see three sided, it separates the room (kitchen and living room)

 

[jacqur]

You should stay at three quarter inch all the way; at the pump you should use a one inch gate valve and above the valve use a one inch check valve. It give less restrict flow and use only 45 degree elbows only (two together to make a 90 degree turn)except the two return at the top of the tank. Put a union coupling first and gate valve in front of the inlet of the pump. In case you need to service the pump you can shut the valve instead of draining the sump. Also a union coupling on tops the pump too. I have done a lot of setup from the basement.

I have to disagree with some of the recommendations above. I'm not sure why you would use a gate valve and not a ball valve. Ball valves are much cheaper and easier to find at HD or Lowes. But do use one on intake and discharge. A couple extra bucks now saves huge hassels down the road. ball valves and check vales close to pump.

Also - To minimize headloss you should maintain the pump discharge diameter as long as possible. Larger pipe diameters = Less wall friction losses. I suggest keeping it at 1.5" through the floor and then transition to flexible PVC from underneath the stand via a "Y" fitting.

You may also consider coming around the back of the tank and over the top. That way you can employ (2) 1" returns and get a lot more than 1400gal.

You could use the 3/4"s as returns in addition to the 1"s. Having more return capacity than supply capacity= warm safe feeling. Makes overflows unlikely .

 

[jacqur]

One more thing - Dolphin pumps come with unions at the intake and discharge. Nice feature.

 

[DLCanuck]

Gate valve, you have a better control to adjusting the pressure, if the pressure is too much in the tank. Ball valve doesn?t. When closing a ball valve, you turning inside the ball and become like an elbow.

 

[Moe_K]

Jacqur, I gotta see your set up. Very similar to what I eventually plan on doing. I have all the parts.

 

[DLCanuck]

Hey Moe_K you?re welcome to come over to my place too , so you can see the setup I have.

 

[jacqur]

I see what your saying. Gate valve vs. ball valve. Neither is designed for flow control. Both are intended to have only 2 states. Open or closed. Of course either work fine in the flow control applications we use as hobbyists. Perhaps a gate valve presents less head loss than a ball valve but I think we are talking about some pretty small fractions there.

Correct flow control mechanism, (OVERKILL) = globe valve.

 

[DLCanuck]

Something I remember when I was in the navy about fuel and steam pressure.

 

[jacqur]

Moe - You asked, so here is my first attempt at posting a photo in a reply.

photo is from inside stand underneath the tank. OM has 1.5" inlet a 1" outlets. Supply from basement Dolphin is 2" so I reduce to a 2x 2x 1.5" PVC "Y". Then I bush down to 1" at the Y leg for a flexible PVC pipe. This way I have a 1" bypass around the OM to help make up for the headloss of the 2" transition to the (2) 1" discharges of the OM. As you can see, pipes go behind tank and all 4 OM discharges about an inch below surface. located 2 in center back of tank and one in each front corner. I purchased the grey plastic (infinetly)adjustable elbows. They are a must IMHO. $20 each but you definitely will appreciate the ability to direct the flow, especially as your tank grows out.

Ultimately, my return profile is this:
(OM bypass) - fixed 1" pipe behind my rockwork about 14" deep in tank w/ a T fitting to direct water in both directions.
(4 OM discharges) - Option #1 I think. 1&2, 2&3, 3&4, 4&1.

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[jacqur]

Overflow mods which are pretty straightforward. And one of the adjustable nozzles.

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[DLCanuck]

Jacqur

Also remember that the over flow box are rated 600 GPH drain per box, you can add more water in the tank but the drain part stay the same. And the hole in the tank you cannot change it. You can start big but you still end small. The pressure will be there but at the end it still be restrict. You can put a bigger pipe to drain but you start what the manufacture spec hole they put in.

 

[~Flighty~]

I am using an ampmaster 3000 for a basement return. I get 1200 gph actually measured.

Remind me when I get back from macna and I can explain my setup or you can come see it.

 

[jacqur]

Good point on the stock overflow boxes. If you plan on accommodating more than 1200 gph at the tank you need to modify the stock overflows. I attached a picture of my modifications but it was taken at night and my photo skills are less than good.

I figure by cutting 2 of every three ribs out of the overflow comb I can roughly tripple the capacity(~1800gph). I believe each overflow is handling about 1500 gph on my tank as I have made an educated estimate at my flow to the tank as ~3000gph. I also utilize both the 3/4" and 1" bulkheads in each overflow as a return. I never did the calcs so it may not be necessary but I felt it offered peace of mind.

My operating water level is about 4/5 up the comb so I still get the surface skimming they are intended to provide. With that modification you need to glue a screen or gutter guard over the larger holes or plan on removing smaller snails, hermits, small fish, etc. from the overflows on a regular basis.

 

[NateHanson]

If you have a high pressure pump, I highly recommend looking into penductors. They'll greatly increase the ammount and distribution of flow in your tank, while decreasing the volume of flow through the sump. Plus they're about $25! Worth a try. I've loved mine on a Mak4 pump.

Nate

 

[DLCanuck]

I am glad to help out, on the way back from Macna you?re welcome to stop by and see the system I did. Some day I invest a good camera to post the thing I have done.

 

[nickoz]

Thanks for the info. Anyone else have a similar setup?

-nick

 

[nickoz]

^bump^

Does my plumbing sound right, Return will be 1.5" -> 2" -> Td to two 3/4". Drain two 1" bulkheads to 2" drain? Tank is Oceanic. I was planning the increase to 2" on the return to reduce friction and increase flow. What should I do for the drain, 1"-> 1.5", 2" or greater?

Thanks,
-nick