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Geothermal Loop in basement

I live in Brooklyn, but if you can scan it and email it to me jeffreyekirsch at gmail dot com it would be very much appreciated.

I imagine I will have about 200-300 gallons temp drop assuming it get to 82-85 would be about 4-7 degrees. I'm really looking for water stability.
 
From what I have read, Pex tubing is what they use for heating concrete. Hear are a couple of links with a lot of info. It looks like if you have any ferrous components (iron, steel...) you need the pex with an oxygen barrier.

http://www.pexsupply.com/how_to_radiant_heat.asp#pex_tubing

http://www.pexheat.com/

I am looking at this type of heating system also. I am not an expert.
I believe that 1/2 inch is used mostly.
 
Greg Hiller said:
Just don't make the mistake that I did (or Marvin did depending upon how you look at it), don't use tubing that is too thick to allow the heat transfer into the ground to be effective.

I was thinking of having a pit poured in the garage. In this I could put a large sump to be used in the summer. Maybe 300g - since the ground is supposed to stay around 55 at depth.
Hook this up to a controller that would circulate the water if the temp went over x degrees

Now I'm thinking maybe several smaller containers may be better
I could have the foundation guy leave a "pit" maybe 8-12' long, and 3' deep
Install my containers & plumb them, then build a cover

Perhaps easiest would be 55g drums
 
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Scuba_Dave said:
I was thinking of having a pit poured in the garage. In this I could put a large sump to be used in the summer. Maybe 300g - since the ground is supposed to stay around 55 at depth.
Hook this up to a controller that would circulate the water if the temp went over x degrees

Now I'm thinking maybe several smaller containers may be better
I could have the foundation guy leave a "pit" maybe 8-12' long, and 3' deep
Install my containers & plumb them, then build a cover

Perhaps easiest would be 55g drums

Your contractor is going to think your setting up a meth lab...lol
 
Mr. Skatezen,
Did you get this running? any success?
I'm getting ready to burry mine, I'm going outside the foundation to eliminate the heat radiated from the building through the slab.
What did you end up with for tubing?
How did our "NERAC open bar" heat exchanger work?

Greg,
I'm curious to learn how you determined that wall thickness was your problem? Would a larger tubing diameter w/ more flow helped?
 
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Please look at PEX tubing for in slab work. It is designed for this type of application, has good thermal translation properties, is very durable and non-reactive. Also remember the slower the loop velocity the better the thermal exchange is going to be. The thickness of the tubing wall should not impact the BTU exchange significantly if the flow is kept low enough. Depending on tubing diameter (surface area), the temperature of the slab/room/fluid this should work well if kept less than 0.75 fps. (estimate)

One final thought, keep enough concrete mass above the tubing to prevent cracking. You will be creating thermal stresses by heating materials with differing expansion properties and this can have a surprising impact on rigid materials like concrete. (PEX is "closer" to concrete than PVC, PTFE or Polypro for example)

Rob
 
Marc,

The way I know the problem was the tubing thickness is this:

Even after operating the loop for a very short period of time (a few minutes) I noticed that the water coming out of the loop was not significantly cooler than that going in (measured with thermometer). If the problem was that the heat was not radiating away from the coil though the surrounding ground, then the same problem would occur (water not cooling after flowing through loop), but it would take a bit of time as it would take time for the ground near the tubing to heat up. The loop is actually also very long, so I don't think the length is the problem. It's possible that the loop is not spaced out over a wide area as I was not around to see it buried. I also understand it was buried in sand, and that might not have been a good idea either as the sand may act as an insulator. At least, that's my story, and I'm sticking too it.

FWIW, I'd wanted to test the new system I'm building a bit before posting, but since you brought the topic up again:

I've found some very inexpensive, flexible aluminum tubing pieces available from Aquatic Ecosystems. They are only $9 each. I've linked 4 of these heat exchangers (they are designed to be heat exchangers) in parallel with pieces of tubing, and buried them about 1-3 feet under the ground just outside of the foundation of my new addition, attached to a pair of sacrificial zinc anodes. After looking up a few things in some reference books (freezing temps of solutions, and corrosion of various liquids on aluminum) I've decided to use just DI water in the cooling loop. I will use long lengths of 1/4" plastic tubing in parallel in the sump. I have a high pressure low flowrate Iwaki pump to move the water around the loop. I still don't know if I will end up having a problem with the heat moving away from the ground directly around the aluminum heat exchangers. I'm pretty confident that the aluminum coils will very efficiently transfer the heat into the soil.

I'd considered using some type of special fluid (to reduce the chance of freezing) in the heat exchange loop, but I've now settled on the idea of just shutting the loop down and blowing most of the water out each winter when it starts getting consistantly down to near the freezing mark each year.
 
The heat transfer per unit surface through convection is known as Newton's Law of Cooling.
The equation for convection can be expressed as:
q = k A dT (1)
if:
q = heat transferred per unit time (W)
A = heat transfer area of the surface (mo)
k = convection heat transfer coefficient of the process (W/m2.K or W/m2.oC)
dT = temperature difference between the surface and the bulk fluid (K or oC)


If A, k and dT cannot be changed due to fixed elements (e.g. temp of the earth, tubing material, size of loop, ect.), q may be impacted by increasing the unit of time. Actually q does not change but you end up with multiples of q as an output.
 
rjdudek,

Heck we can even put in a number for h if you like (my old heat transfer text book uses h for convective heat transfer and k for conductive, not that it matters), 3500 W/m2oC for water flowing at 0.5 kg/s in a 2.5cm diameter tube, but that really doesn't help much for this calculation because (I believe anyhow) the overriding problem in my case was/is the resistance to heat transfer accross the plastic tubing I was using when I initially set up my loop.

q =h A (Tw-Tbulk) agreed of course

Tw being the temp of the wall, and T bulk that of the liquid at the centerline of the tubing.

If you assume that the temp of the ground does not change (admittedly not reality, but works to understand things for the moment) then most of the heat transfer resistance is directly proportional to the thickness of the tubing. This fairly well approximates what was happening in my old loop. Water made the entire trip through the loop and did not change temp significantly (q=near zero, therefore Tw nearly equal to Tbulk). Therefore all the resistance to heat transfer was either in the wall of the tubing itself, or in the dirt, or sand just outside the outer wall of the tubing. I'm pretty sure that wet soil or sand is a better conductor of heat than plastic tubing, but I might be wrong on that. In either case it doesn't matter whether that last sentence is true or not since I cannot (or will not) dig up the old line and try to improve it. It's much easier for me just to install a new, better designed line using tubing made of metal that will have a very high thermal conductivity (very low resistance to heat transfer). Then the only question is whether the heat will disperse into the ground around the cooling loop quickly enough.

But admittedly, until I've tested by new system I don't know if it will work much better than the old. :D

>Also remember the slower the loop velocity the better the thermal exchange is going to be.<

Well...yes and no. The convective heat transfer coefficient (h) can be quite dependent upon the flowrate of liquid through a tube. The faster the flowrate the smaller the boundary layer of water at the surface (this will be also affected by the Reynolds number, as to whether the liquid is in turbulent, or laminar flow). Calculating h can also be quite dependent upon a whole bunch of other parameters, viscosity, density, conductivity of fluid, diameter of pipe, roughness of pipe, etc. etc. As I recall you end up using different calculations with Nusselt, Prantl, and a bunch of other dimentionless numbers raised to different exponents depending upon the flow regimens you are in...:eek:

I agree of course that if you flow the water though a loop slow enough you will end up with water coming out of the loop at the same temperature as the medium it's flowing though, but that does not necessarily mean that you will remove the largest amount of heat from your tank operating at the lowest flowrate.
 
Since the goal is maximum heat drop/unit time, and not maximum temperature drop per unit volume through the loop, I'd think that maintaining a high deltaT would be best. To do that would mean flowing the loop at a faster rate. The ideal flow rate in my (biology-educated) mind would give you about a 5 degree or less temp drop, because that way even the water near the end of the loop would still be hot enough to transfer heat to the cold ground. On the other hand, if you flow it so slowly that the water coming out is the same temperature as the ground, then the end of your loop is basically doing nothing, because it'll be so close to the temperature of the heat sink. So greg, before you pan your setup, did you consider how much the HEAT drop of your system (taking into account the ammount of water), or just the temperature drop (which wouldn't really be a meaningful measurement of how much heat the system could remove).

Does that make sense to anyone but me?


I'm glad this discussion is going on, and people are thinking about it. I'll be looking closely at this idea when we move into our house in Maine. We may do a basement project (dig it down another foot or two, and pour a concrete floor) and I would likely lay some PEX tubing for the purpose of cooling a reef tank, and/or a GOM ecotype tank if you guys can figure out how to make this work.

(The other option would be to put a heat exchanger in the bay, but that'd be about 500 feet of trenching from the house to the water, so I can't imagine that would be worth it.)
 
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I didnt have time to read all the post but I did read your first one. three things, if you are doing this in your basement it will not freeze ever. your basement is below the frost line assuming it is a normal base. If it is a slab on the serfice of the ground or say two feet below you wouldnt need the cooling system in the winter so you could just blow it out like we do irrigation systems outside, and leave it for the winter. Second, The radient heating in a house uses flexible copper line or that is what we used on the last one I did about a yr ago. It transfers heat better. both of these things lead me two my third point and that is in both of these instances you will not need salt water. it will just gunk up the hole sytem, with no chance of freezing the salt water is no needed(could always add antifreeze if it will never be in contact with the tank water). well I am sorry if the other replys have said this wish I had time to read them, but I am setting my tank up tonight. Thanks Mac
 
marco67 said:
Mr. Skatezen,
Did you get this running? any success?
I'm getting ready to burry mine, I'm going outside the foundation to eliminate the heat radiated from the building through the slab.
What did you end up with for tubing?
How did our "NERAC open bar" heat exchanger work?


Hey Marc, what's shakin'?

I actually have not gotten around to doing my loop yet, but I will soon. This weekend I am framing and sheet-rocking the basement. Soon after I will install the loop, pour a new slab and tile. I had planned on getting Flexible Polyethylene Tubing 1/8" Id, 1/4" Od, 1/16" Wall Thickness,
800 ft @ $0.08/foot or Flexible Polyethylene Tubing 1/4" Id, 3/8" Od, 1/16" Wall Thickness, 800 ft @ $0.14/ft. I had not considered the PEX tubing based on cost. Do you all think the regular "RODI" polyethylene tubing will work out ok? I do think that the radiator style exchanger will work quite well. The one thing I am going to add to it though is an expansion tank or some sort.

Can you give a more detailed description on how you plan to do your loop?

Jeff
 
skatezen said:
Hey Marc, what's shakin'?

Can you give a more detailed description on how you plan to do your loop?

Jeff

Well, things have been so crazy lately I haven't had time to give it the proper research yet. I do need to get going though (the foundation for my new building will be ready to backfill sometime late next week) I have a total of 7 systems I want to sink loops for. I have 2 areas to work with, inside the perimeter and outside. Inside is limited to ~1100sqf under the slab . Outside I have about 60-70 liner feet next to the foundation that will be from 6-8' below grade and another 70+' that will be 3-4'.
After reading about Greg's and looking around at others on RC I think I'll take advantage of that space and not have 2 loops share the same soil. As for pipe material and size?, Like I said more research needed but If I had to do it today on just a got feeling, I think I'd sink 150' of 1/2" for each. Probably that think walled black vinyl (for cost).
I'm also anxious to look into those heat exchangers Greg mentioned.
Argggghhh just typing this makes me realize how behind I am.
I think I'll take next week off and just concentrate on this.
Marc
 
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Nate,

>So greg, before you pan your setup, did you consider how much the HEAT drop of your system (taking into account the ammount of water), or just the temperature drop (which wouldn't really be a meaningful measurement of how much heat the system could remove). <

I was using a fairly slow speed water pump, so the total amount of heat removed/transferred was very small. FWIW, I let the loop run for many hours, even several days, and it had essentially no effect on the temp in the tank. The temp of the water in the loop was essentially the temp of the water in the tank, meaning that the heat was efficiently transferred into the loop in the sump, but not transferred out of the loop into the ground.

> I'll be looking closely at this idea when we move into our house in Maine.<

In a new construction project IMO this would not be hard to do correctly. I'm kind of bummed I didn't do it correctly the first time.

>I'm also anxious to look into those heat exchangers Greg mentioned.<

Here's what they look like. You can easily flex them by hand and spread them over a larger surface area and shape that you might want.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/9248/cid/2224
 
Greg Hiller said:
>I'm also anxious to look into those heat exchangers Greg mentioned.<

Here's what they look like. You can easily flex them by hand and spread them over a larger surface area and shape that you might want.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/9248/cid/2224

So you are going to bury them? Hmmm very interesting ...I saw those before but I was thinking of them as the sump side heat exchanger, not the in ground side, Hey maybe both?
 
Marc,

I'm a little afraid of using the bare aluminum in the sump itself. I'd worry there would be too much corrosion.
 
The tank side exchanger will just be long lengths of the cheap 1/4" tubing you can get at HD, many lengths run in parallel.
 
Same as I was planning ...glad to hear you reinforce the idea.
Look ate Jeff's drawing a few posts back, That's what we came up with during open bar at NERAC, eggcrate with the poly tube "woven throughout"

any ideas on life expectancy on that aluminum once buried?
 
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