Help Hi Collectors-potential Ban!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NateHanson]

(I edited the title. Hadn't read this thread until just now because I seriously thought it was about forming a "potential band"! )

Anyways, from the links I've read here, it sounds like a good idea. Sure it's not the perfect bill, but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The collection industry sounds like it needs some checks, and if this is extreme, then I'm sure it will spur a response. It sounds like it's much closer to the mark than the current situation though, so even if it's just a step towards a more appropriate solution, I think it's worth supporting.

As far as flooding Sen Clayton Hee's fax machine and phone line with your opposition, I can't imagine a Hawaii state senator gives two hoots about what a bunch of reef hobbiests in the Continental US think about his bill in the Hawaii STATE legislature, so I'd save your dime.

 

[jakenh]

trust me..nothing good will happen if the goverment gets involved. fisheries science and there way to determine how much of a certain fish specie is abundant in a area, they basically find the fish there looking for mutiply the area untill they find another. then they determine how much they"feel" should be in that area. the sad truth about this is, fish move, they are born with tales, and they have 3/4 of the world to swim in if they prefer.lets take dogfish in our waters for example for yrs most of there scientifc data came from offshore or off the carolinas.they didnt find enough, so a fishery got shut down.they were looking in the wrong spot.10 yrs later dogfish of epic proportions eating all multi specie fish in its wake. im sure a few recreational fishermen will back me up on this. National marine fisheries service anual budget is now in the billons and yet there scientific approach to things is crazy, imo,so the goverment is finally starting to see a problem with a fish specie it would take 2 yrs from today to finally get an answer on what they reserched.this being the computer generation...not needed. industry in itself would be a far better protecter of the yellow tang then our goverment will ever be

 

[Alex]

The last two recessions we went thru were due to inefficiencies in markets due to unreasonable regulation that were meant to protect investors that instead hurt them by destabilizing capital markets that could have corrected themselves but were unable to because the natural buyers of the distressed securities were unable to invest in them even though they were priced way below their actual value.

Politicians get up on soap boxes for causes that they don't research or understand but they're political advisers tell them will get them public support. Due to market timing issues that took place in the financial industry there was a huge over reaction that led to legislature that costs the investor more than the crimes that were being committed. Hundred of thousands of man hours paid to lawyers arguing about the wording of foot notes of annuals that 95% of people throw in the trash. Regulations on employees who make 10$/hr to prevent them from committing crimes that would cost hundreds of millions to pull off. Who pays for it? Not the industry. These expenses are passed on to the average investor which is anyone who has a 401k or a pension, the average joe on the street. Why do you think rich people invest in hedge funds? It's because they aren't any where near as regulated and therefore are a more efficient investment.

As I said regulation is a good thing when it makes sense. When it's regulation for the sake of regulation in most cases it causes way more problems than it fixes.

If you read the bill you can see that it's poorly written and even more poorly researched as Delbeek himself points out. I agree with saving natural resources but it needs to make sense and not just be part of a political cause. You'll also notice that Delbeek points out that the bills driving force was the snorkeling industry so it wasn't exactly an appointed scientific board deciding what needed to be done to keep the reefs running happily and healthily.

When they draft a bill that is backed by research and makes sense it will have my full support.

 

[NateHanson]

trust me..nothing good will happen if the goverment gets involved.
. . .
industry in itself would be a far better protecter of the yellow tang then our goverment will ever be

Seriously? Industry will collect fewer fish to make sure the number of yellow tangs in the wild doesn't decrease???

What do you say to the 2003 article linked above showing a 25-75% decrease in fish populations (depending on the species) in collection areas, compared to no decrease of those species in non-collection areas? Surely there's a decrease here. With the reef hobby getting ever more popular I can't understand anyone who would argue that a decrease like that is going to reverse itself under INDUSTRY regulation. We're not dealing with a couple big companies who MIGHT have a chance of seeing the bigger picture, and potentially limit their collections to save the industry in the long-run. No, these are individual collectors who will just step up their efforts to collect a dwindling supply of ever more precious fish, until populations are completely decimated. What motivation would an individual free-lance diver have to stop collecting fish when the prices are going up and the supply is going down?

Hawaii seems to be using legislation to protect eco-tourism (snorkeling, diving, etc) at the expense of the aquarium collection industry. One industry has an interest in preserving the natural habitat and species for others to enjoy in future generations, while supporting a vibrant Hawaiian economy. The other industry exports Hawaiian specimens for great stateside profit, and has the primary interest of taking as many fish as possible out of the sea. I can't say I blame the HI legislature for favoring the snorkeling companies on this one.

 

[JeremyR]

The point is there can be a happy medium that benefits everyone, and rather than just going with the snorkelers and banning collection they should do their due diligence and figure out something reasonable.

 

[Alex]

The point is there can be a happy medium that benefits everyone, and rather than just going with the snorkelers and banning collection they should do their due diligence and figure out something reasonable.

Agreed

 

[stingythingy45]

I think they should ban the snorkelers.
After all they're disturbing the natural world.
There's no telling how many fish have been freaked out by seeing divers and didn't reproduce.Not to mention the trash and stuff that finds it way into the ocean from these vessels.It's probably the fees for fish collection that even keep these areas off limits to begin with.All I see is lot of hypocrites.Typing how great of an idea it is,while looking up at that bright yellow Tang swimming around their tank.Dollar signs rolling in their eyes how their $25 fish could triple in cost.
Well,from what I gather there's vast areas around the islands that are off limits to fish collection.Do you think the conditions of holding tanks for these fish are bad now.....ha......wait til it goes underground(or underwater).

*BTW.....just playing devil's advocate here.

 

[Cardiak]

Do you think the conditions of holding tanks for these fish are bad now.....ha......wait til it goes underground(or underwater).

*BTW.....just playing devil's advocate here.

Very well Pachino... but I highly doubt any ban will create an underground black fish market But hey, they say reefing is more addicting then heroin so you never know what us crazies will do to get our precious yellow tangs!!

 

[stingythingy45]

Very well Pachino... but I highly doubt any ban will create an underground black fish market But hey, they say reefing is more addicting then heroin so you never know what us crazies will do to get our precious yellow tangs!!

I pay enough for my fugu already.
Addicting.....yeah think?lol
It used to be:
Get home,walk in the house,pet dog,kiss wife....and how was your day?
Now it's,screach in the driveway,trip on the dog,get out of the way.........how's the fish/coral doing?(nose pressed to glass).

 

[Jim Tansey]

As much as I love my aquarium and do pretty well with my livestock I know for every life in it, 10, 20, 30 , 40 or more are lost due to poor collection or later by individual management. I think I'm at the point that "Tank Raised" fish and all livestock is the way to go, I have no problem with some collection by the Pro's and breeding to supply the market, but we must stop destroying the natural reefs (I've seen some of it).

Jim

 

[NateHanson]

As much as I love my aquarium and do pretty well with my livestock I know for every life in it, 10, 20, 30 , 40 or more are lost due to poor collection or later by individual management. I think I'm at the point that "Tank Raised" fish and all livestock is the way to go, I have no problem with some collection by the Pro's and breeding to supply the market, but we must stop destroying the natural reefs (I've seen some of it).

Jim

Well said. This is what I'm thinking of when I set up a tank. It's got to be low-impact. Tank-raised fish won't be available if we don't demand them. Sure they'll be more expensive, but we should make it a part of responsible reefing. Just as BRS coral propagation has made coral trading a responsible part of the hobby.

Nate

 

[Cardiak]

Problem is, there are no known methods of how to breed these fish. It’s not like people just aren’t trying. From what I’m aware of, the only recorded evidence of tangs breeding in captivity occurs in massive marine tanks of over 10,000 gallons. GL starting that breeding operation and hunting down those eggs before they get eaten or hatch and starve to death. If you guys were honest and true to your dedication of not stealing from the reef and going the tank bred route then you would be limited to a small handful of fish varieties from which to choose.

Anyways, I'd like to see some factual numbers on the exact number of exported fish from HI. I seriously have a hard time buying that they are over fishing any of these small species of fish for aquarium use. As most things green, it seems to be completely blown out of proportion as their heart bleeds for all things cute looking.

 

[NateHanson]

Anyways, I'd like to see some factual numbers on the exact number of exported fish from HI. I seriously have a hard time buying that they are over fishing any of these small species of fish for aquarium use. As most things green, it seems to be completely blown out of proportion as their heart bleeds for all things cute looking.

There's a paper linked on the first page of this thread that documents the decrease in fish populations from collection sites in HI.

As far as captive propagation, it used to be that corals were not captive propagated either. People couldn't get them to grow well enough. I understand that was about 15 years ago. This bill isn't eliminating collection, it's putting limits on it. My hope is that action like this provides motive for people to work on breeding them. There has been initial success at breeding a number of varieties of fish, but they're not commercially viable, because collected fish are still so cheap and plentiful. If collection is restricted some so that populations aren't being depleted, then wild fish will cost more. That will make captive breeding more feasible/profitable, and I'm sure we'll see more of those fish.

 

[Myk]

Just a quick note, and some of the other vendores may chime in.
Not much of the aquarium/LFS trade gets inventory from Hawaii.
The fish that will be impacted most by this will be the chevron tang. Which is already rare Yellow tangs come from everywhere, as well as most fish imported that are also found in Hawaii. Theres is also very little collectors in Hawaii for most have already gave that business up years ago.

*Achiles
*Hawian Flame Wrasse.

Might be a couple others.

Myk

 

[qazplm25]

I am for this ban 100%! I think it is bad that they are collecting so many wild things for the ocean just to be put in very bad conditions (compared to the ocean where they are from). Especially because most fish are sold to people who have no clue what there doing and say oh ya this is from finding nemo and then put a clownfish in a 1 gallon bowl without a heater or filter and it dies after a day and they buy another one and so on.

 

[smithcreek]

I love all this self flagellation.

 

[jakenh]

Seriously? Industry will collect fewer fish to make sure the number of yellow tangs in the wild doesn't decrease???

What do you say to the 2003 article linked above showing a 25-75% decrease in fish populations (depending on the species) in collection areas, compared to no decrease of those species in non-collection areas? Surely there's a decrease here. With the reef hobby getting ever more popular I can't understand anyone who would argue that a decrease like that is going to reverse itself under INDUSTRY regulation. We're not dealing with a couple big companies who MIGHT have a chance of seeing the bigger picture, and potentially limit their collections to save the industry in the long-run. No, these are individual collectors who will just step up their efforts to collect a dwindling supply of ever more precious fish, until populations are completely decimated. What motivation would an individual free-lance diver have to stop collecting fish when the prices are going up and

Yes! seriously, i look at industry regulation going on in your own state v nothed lobsters and a 2 sided gauge politicians didnt come up with that, industry did with record landings in 2005. 2006 2007 most of the ytcollectors want the small ones they leave the bigger ones to spawn, industry can have good ideas. let the goverment inforce the rules that industry sets.dont let industry get forced around by politics.i make my living off the sea just like the yt collectors in HI and beleave me we are not out there to decimate a resorce.we do it because we like what we do. so like many ppl that like there job they want to do it for awile.

 

[Dragon2115]

One of the posters on RC made an excellent point, fish are only legally collected from around six of the 132 islands that make up the Hawaiian island chain. The rest (which is an immense area) is all a national marine preservation zone where fishing of any kind is off-limits.

I'm all for aqua-culturing but without better data this seems to have a hint of industry protectionism by the dive industry.

And speaking of the dive industry, they should be careful about throwing stones while living in glass houses. I've seen Dive Masters do things that should be criminal like harassing the wildlife so their customers have something to see. I pride myself on my buoyancy control and that I can take photographs without touching anything in the process. I wish I could say the same for the bulk of the "tourist" divers I've run into. They do more damage to the reef than any collector or strom ever could.

I would want to take a closer look at this before coming down on either side of the fence. What bothers me with the way the bill is currently written is that it's open ended. Any law that's written that way raises a red flag with me regardless of the subject.

 

[Jocko]

Yes! seriously, i look at industry regulation going on in your own state v nothed lobsters and a 2 sided gauge politicians didnt come up with that, industry did with record landings in 2005. 2006 2007 most of the ytcollectors want the small ones they leave the bigger ones to spawn, industry can have good ideas. let the goverment inforce the rules that industry sets.dont let industry get forced around by politics.i make my living off the sea just like the yt collectors in HI and beleave me we are not out there to decimate a resorce.we do it because we like what we do. so like many ppl that like there job they want to do it for awile.

Ok so when are they going to start? I'm with Nate on this one. I'm a Republican and I think the idea that these collectors are going to be responsible is hilarious. There will always be some guy who needs money and will go out and capture the remaining fish. You keep avoiding the study that shows the decline. Although I think you hinted earlier that the scientific methods used in the study are suspect. Essentially the results indicating a decline in population that happens to correlate with an increase in the marine aquarium industry is just a coincidence, right? Maybe the current bill isn't perfect and needs to be reworked, but I question the motives of people who are saying that there should be no regulation at all. It's not like the market for these fish is going to level off or decline!

 

[JeremyR]

Distribution: Pacific Ocean: Ryukyu, Mariana, Marshall, Marcus, Wake and Hawaiian islands.

Most certainly does not come from everywhere, it is a hawaiian export.