How many of you have went back to halides or t5s

[LoveTheReef]

VW are marketed as economic cars, they sell for the same price range of other economic cars.
They are actually no bad for their price and they don't disguise as BMW either.
Hyndai is good car too, but they just can't market them as Benz.

But we are not talking about cars here, German aquarium products are always top notch such as Tunze.

Becuase money is not grown on trees, we should go with proven technologies if we want to spend big $, or we can experiment with new techlogy without too much money. Can you tell me why AI and Radion is inferior than Pacific Sun?

Thanks

I fail to see how VM being marketed as economic cars has anything to do with their reliability (since they are also made in Germany, and as per your original post, German products == WIN). And I don't even know what "don't disguise as BMW either" means or has to do with the context. If we're going to use analogies, then PacificSun IS BMW (in my opinion, since apparently this is an opinion game for most of us now anyway).

Agreed -- German aquarium products are top notch -- such as Tunze. The lights you keep bringing up are not made by Tunze. They are not made by the same researchers. By your theory, if Bill Gates is from U.S. then every entrepreneur in the U.S. is better than anyone out there in the world. Again, I am not, even once, saying that the lights you mention are not good. They might be the best thing made after slice of bread. My issue is you putting PacificSun lights down over and over again without even having tried them, OR reading user feedback.

And I believe "inferior" is a strong word when comparing Vega (AI is the manufacturer) or Radion to any of the PacificSun lights. I never did, nor ever will call something inferior. Every light has something that fulfills the need in one way or the other of one buyer or the other. In the LED Comparison article I wrote a while back, I brought up those points very well and clear (yes, I need to update it with latest information and price etc.). However for the completeness of this thread, I'll list the key differences again.

Vega and Radion are in one group, Triton and Mitras are in a completely different group. This is not just based on price, but also based on the features they pack. Some features you might appreciate, some you might not -- this post is not about judging which features are useful which aren't because everyone has their own likes and dislikes.

I will talk about PacificSun Triton vs Radion and Vega because these are the lights I have experimented with first hand. Triton packs more output power compared to Radion or Vega. Radion and Vega use lens to over-come this shortcoming (to get greater depth penetration (yes, I chuckled as I wrote this part too)), however in doing so, they lose the "even spread" of the light. Triton, by default, has no lens, and the light from each bulb is evenly spread across the tank. The light coverage of the Vega and Radion is also not as large as the Triton. Vega and Radion are rated for 24" coverage; Triton is rated for 30" coverage. I have been able to push my Triton to cover 36" on my 125 gallon tank. My Vega on the other hand, that I have over my grow-out bin, barely covers the entire bin. The difference in types of bulbs -- as I mentioned, from the read, PacSuns use higher quality bulbs. But since I have not verified this point myself, I will refrain from mentioning this point again. From construction point of view, I like PacificSun construction A LOT better than Vega. Radion is not bad, but I would still choose PacificSun because its sturdier, and is made of all metal.

Other features that I enjoy a lot about the PacificSuns are included in Vega and Radion as well, but I'm sure you're more interested in a vs.

Do I think Vega and Radion suck? Of course not! I recommend these lights to people too! With Vega you have the capability to control every single bulb! And it's cheaper if you need a lot of units. Radion has the great support from Ecotech, along with the built-in ability to work with other Ecotech products.

Am I saying PacificSun lights are perfect and the best thing you can ever get? No, they have their shortcomings -- main one being that their current software is not up to PAR (no pun intended). It's still adequate enough to let you do what you want to do though, and I believe PacificSun is going to be releasing a newer version of the software soon to overcome a lot of those issues.

I will repeat -- I don't think any led lights "suck". It's all about personal preference. Based on my experience, I like PacificSun better because they meet my needs the best -- in terms of the control I seek, power I need, and coral colors I want. Are these lights for everyone? no. If you have a biocube, it might be an overkill to have a PacificSun lamp on it (depending on your needs). But if you have a 29 breeder (30"), a Triton might fit your needs better.

I'm not telling you to not buy Radion or Vega (heck, Radions are my best sellers right now; already sold 12 of them) -- I'm not telling you to stop preaching whatever you'd like to preach. I'm asking you to stop dissing a light you are not familiar with -- whether you do it directly, or implicitly.

 

[JohnK]

Geeze, haven't you guys seen the sham wow commericals? "Germans make good stuff", what else is there to know

 

[LoveTheReef]

Geeze, haven't you guys seen the sham wow commericals? "Germans make good stuff", what else is there to know

hahahahaha nice

 

[ricomike]

I have to slightly respectfully disagree with dz6t on the price issue. 500 or 600 dollars buys you a great 8X54W 48" ATI T5 system however for 48" you need to buy about 3 radions which would be 3 X $600. All of the LED's I have seen available are for small distances and for even a 36" you need at least two and you end up spending double the price of a metal halide or LED for the same distance. I may be wrong on these prices. But this is my experience.

 

[dz6t]

I have to slightly respectfully disagree with dz6t on the price issue. 500 or 600 dollars buys you a great 8X54W 48" ATI T5 system however for 48" you need to buy about 3 radions which would be 3 X $600. All of the LED's I have seen available are for small distances and for even a 36" you need at least two and you end up spending double the price of a metal halide or LED for the same distance. I may be wrong on these prices. But this is my experience.

I agree, I forgot the size part. Thanks for correcting me.

 

[dz6t]

Geeze, haven't you guys seen the sham wow commericals? "Germans make good stuff", what else is there to know

Funny, in general German do make good stuff, it is proven over and over again in the history. Don't tell me a person that buy a BMW just because it drives better. Other countries make good stuff too. If you even look at those Reefbreeders LED in person, you can see the build quality and material is comparable to the pacific sun. Yes, I saw Pacific Sun too, not only at Love the Reef. In terms of feature, they are very comparable (minus some feature that may or may not be truely benefit reef keeping). But the price difference is very big.
On the other hand, I am wondering why it is assumed that I do not have experience with Pacific Sun? They are commerically available to everyone.

Lets say, if someone want to design a better LED, what would they do? They would buy all the major competitors products and compare them in, lets say, a lab. On top of that, take them apart to see what is inside also help. One should not assume that these works have not been done.

With the information I have, I will put my money on useful features that really benefit corals we are keeping.

 

[Turbosnail]

Several posts were removed for; Off topic posting, rude and insulting behavior, and name calling. None of this is allowed here, and future disregard for forum rules may result in a loss of posting privlidges for any offender(s) Turbosnail BRS President

 

[LoveTheReef]

Funny, in general German do make good stuff, it is proven over and over again in the history. Don't tell me a person that buy a BMW just because it drives better. Other countries make good stuff too. If you even look at those Reefbreeders LED in person, you can see the build quality and material is comparable to the pacific sun. Yes, I saw Pacific Sun too, not only at Love the Reef. In terms of feature, they are very comparable (minus some feature that may or may not be truely benefit reef keeping). But the price difference is very big.
On the other hand, I am wondering why it is assumed that I do not have experience with Pacific Sun? They are commerically available to everyone.

Lets say, if someone want to design a better LED, what would they do? They would buy all the major competitors products and compare them in, lets say, a lab. On top of that, take them apart to see what is inside also help. One should not assume that these works have not been done.

With the information I have, I will put my money on useful features that really benefit corals we are keeping.

Again, no offense, but if you truly believe the "features" on a ReefBreeders are comparable to a Ecotech, AI, or PacificSun light, you are HIGHLY misinformed. If its the features that you personally care about, then you need to state that in your statements to be politically correct.

Yes, PacificSun is commercially available, and yes, I know for a fact that you own none of the newer fixtures being currently marketed. And based on your comments, anyone that has researched PacificSun light reviews recently will "know" that you haven't read those. My goal is not to prove you wrong -- it's only to make you stop mis-informing fellow reefers that only ReefBreeders, AI, Ecotech, or "German" lights are good.

And please, go ahead -- design a better led (I'm sure many other reefers, including myself are still waiting for the one you've been working on). The day I come across a led that I like better than the ones I use right now, I will gladly switch and inform the customers accordingly. Maybe it'll be the LEDs you are working on, who knows. I have no issues with people building upon someone else's technology -- my only issue is you putting down a light you haven't studied or used.

 

[dz6t]

I persoally does not USE any of the products, but that does not mean I don't have the correct information. due to the information I have, I decided not to USE any of the products. But the research had been done in the lab and I have the information.

For your information, WE have studied all the products you mention.

I think you misunderstood my points of view, I don't think Pacific Sun is a bad product. Let's say, if the price point of Pacific Sun drop to $500 range, it is a very comparable product to AI and Radion.

 

[me2003]

I heard all the same arguments when moving away from VHO bulbs. For those of you wondering what is a VHO,
you will be asking the same question about metal halides in five years.LED systems are following a classic adoption
curve. The prices are staring to drop and will continue this year until they are cheaper than a metal halide.
Onyx by Rapid LED is an example of the newer lower costs leds. There are always a few issues adjusting a new technology
but the advantages of LED are an order of magnitude above MH and t5. LEDs also don't contain mercury.
Mixed LEd arrays and adding more UV are recent updates that resolve issues with rainbow effect
and/or missing spectrum.

 

[dz6t]

We have looked into the short comings of current marketed LED fixtures and the German Triton LED technology does solve some of the major issues. But it comes with a terrible price point in order to solve these problems. So, it force us to look at alternative technologies, such as LEP, in order to make a product that is affordable to hobbyists to over come those short comings.

 

[dz6t]

I heard all the same arguments when moving away from VHO bulbs. For those of you wondering what is a VHO,
you will be asking the same question about metal halides in five years.LED systems are following a classic adoption
curve. The prices are staring to drop and will continue this year until they are cheaper than a metal halide.
Onyx by Rapid LED is an example of the newer lower costs leds. There are always a few issues adjusting a new technology
but the advantages of LED are an order of magnitude above MH and t5. LEDs also don't contain mercury.
Mixed LEd arrays and adding more UV are recent updates that resolve issues with rainbow effect
and/or missing spectrum.

Very well said.
There is a full spectrum LED chip developed but the current price piont for these chips are too expensive. That is due to low production and low demand. The reef light market is very very tiny in fact and is forced to use common inexpensive chips.

The current chips used in markets LED fixtures for Reef lighting are the same chips used in common applications such as home and hotel lightings.
The demand of these chips are very high and produce in very large volumn. the price of these chips are already very very low. For example, a 3w chip costs in cents not dollars.

 

[dz6t]

And please, go ahead -- design a better led (I'm sure many other reefers, including myself are still waiting for the one you've been working on). .

I wish that will happen but not very likely an LED based light. The LED project is not going forward untill there are new breeds of LED chip available at a low enoguh price point.

 

[Matt L.]

Funny, in general German do make good stuff, it is proven over and over again in the history...

That may have been true once, but it hasn't been true for a while. And I'm talking about all products, not just reef products. There are still good German products, but German Engineering is largely a marketing ploy now.

Matt

 

[LoveTheReef]

I persoally does not USE any of the products, but that does not mean I don't have the correct information. due to the information I have, I decided not to USE any of the products. But the research had been done in the lab and I have the information.

For your information, WE have studied all the products you mention.

I think you misunderstood my points of view, I don't think Pacific Sun is a bad product. Let's say, if the price point of Pacific Sun drop to $500 range, it is a very comparable product to AI and Radion.

Thanks for the clarification Dong -- I appreciate it.

Again, I don't see why you need PacificSun fixtures, which pack more power, more bulbs, better construction, more features than competitors to fall below the competitor prices to be an "option"; OR the fact that despite the before mentioned points, you feel it's only "comparable", but that is for the customers to decide after reading all of my arguments and other mentioned points.

I'm also not sure how/why you would test fixtures in a lab instead of over real aquariums, especially considering we still don't know all that much about this hobby ... (well ... you might ). To me it's quite fascinating how different people have different luck with different technologies, everyone understands what works for 1 might not work for others, and yet we have this battle on monthly basis.

But regardless, good luck with your fixture! Hopefully it'll be a game changer and hopefully we'll see it soon

Thanks,

- Archit

 

[dz6t]

Thanks for the clarification Dong -- I appreciate it.

Again, I don't see why you need PacificSun fixtures, which pack more power, more bulbs, better construction, more features than competitors to fall below the competitor prices to be an "option"; OR the fact that despite the before mentioned points, you feel it's only "comparable", but that is for the customers to decide after reading all of my arguments and other mentioned points.

I'm also not sure how/why you would test fixtures in a lab instead of over real aquariums, especially considering we still don't know all that much about this hobby ... (well ... you might ). To me it's quite fascinating how different people have different luck with different technologies, everyone understands what works for 1 might not work for others, and yet we have this battle on monthly basis.

But regardless, good luck with your fixture! Hopefully it'll be a game changer and hopefully we'll see it soon

Thanks,

- Archit

Testings done included on reef tanks, just not done in my house. They were done oversea with investors money. I don't have that kind of money to do that.

 

[Matt L.]

I heard all the same arguments when moving away from VHO bulbs. For those of you wondering what is a VHO,
you will be asking the same question about metal halides in five years.

I have followed the Vivid Aquarium study from 2012, which to my knowledge, is the only (semi-)controlled study where LED's were matched up directly against MH's. They were able to replace 2800W of MH with just 11 Ecotech Radions (1540W). That's a little over half the power. And an H. magnifica doesn't look like that if it's unhappy. I've dealt with these guys and I trust them.

When I build my next tank, I plan to install LEDs, or a mix of LED and MH's. I have decided on the Ecotech Radion Gen 2, and I'm not certain if I'll even have any MH's. The purpose is to keep heat and energy costs down.

There are enough positive reviews out there to indicate that LED systems work. Period.

And if one coral doesn't like LEDs, well, I either won't keep it or I'll move it under the MH's. There appear to be plenty of other corals that do.

That's just my personal opinion.

Matt

 

[jason401]

48" tank will require 2 radions, not 3

 

[P-Nut]

I have to slightly respectfully disagree with dz6t on the price issue. 500 or 600 dollars buys you a great 8X54W 48" ATI T5 system however for 48" you need to buy about 3 radions which would be 3 X $600. All of the LED's I have seen available are for small distances and for even a 36" you need at least two and you end up spending double the price of a metal halide or LED for the same distance. I may be wrong on these prices. But this is my experience.

More than double the price if you get an Ebay fixture instead of an overpriced T5 ATI fixture.

 

[SteveDola]

To me I didnt get in this hobby to save money. I dont design systems around energy efficiency but around keeping corals. The LED technology I utilized didnt offer me the same coral results that I had witnessed from MH or T5. Will it someday? yes. Does it today? probably, but Im not going back down that route for the amount of money that it costs to have it POSSIBLY work (with the corals I keep) as I know the other technologies currently do...all to save 15 bucks a month. This thread was about experiences with LED and if you went back to a former proven technology. Of course there are always more than 1 way to skin a cat but every thinks theirs is the best way...Im not saying my method is the best but it works well for me. Ive been hearing for 5 years that in 5 years no one will have MH or T5 lighting...now 5 years later Im hearing the same thing...Funny.

And IMO Germans do make good products still...case and point: ATI. Are all german products allstars? no...but many of the products from Germany are industry leading products.