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How many use tap water for their tank?
- Thread starter davidrupe
- Start date
Matt L.
Non-member
Let's Back Up Here a Second
I now see that I was wrong in that presumption.
In fact, to save me the time of explaining in detail, read here first. You will see that tapwater contains, although benign to us humans, unacceptably high levels of phosphate, nitrate, and silica, all of which are algal nutrients. Moreover, you can see that the copper concentration is already at a level detrimental to the health of marine invertebrates. As someone already suggested, that copper level is only going to increase with time in your system, and a refugium with macroalgae isn't going to help you too much in the heavy metal department.
As for chloramines, the notion that you add a chemical and chlormines simply poof and vanish is also 100% incorrect. The most common fish application chloramine remover is sodium thiosulfate (the thisulfate ion, S2O3-- is the business end of the compund). Sodium thiosulfate reacts with chloramine to yield (are you ready for this?) ammonia!
S2O3-- + 4NH2Cl + 5H2O ---> 2SO4-- + 2H+ + 4HCl + 4NH3
And as you should have read, if the ammonia doesn't harm you acutely, the microbial colony will oxidize it to nitrate, which again is an algal nutrient.
I resent the monkey-see mentality that many reefers adopt, but RO/DI units are not one of those mindless follow the leader phenomena.
In closing:
No, I am not an RO/DI manufacturer or stock owner,
Yes, don't waste anymore time with tap water and go buy an RO/DI unit, and
No, you will not be able to keep a succesful reef aquaria with MWRA tapwater
Matt
As the only (or one of only two) liscenced water/wastewater treatment engineers present here on this board, I didn't feel that I needed to offer a detailed explaination of/justification for the obvious and well-documented: that using tapwater is unacceptable for reef aquaria.davidrupe said:Umm, I second this question. I don't understand why so many people have so many opinions but very little facts on whether it is or isn't bad. They just repeat what they were told...prolly by a RO/DI manufacturer...
Chloarmines/clorine, gone with chemicals.
I now see that I was wrong in that presumption.
In fact, to save me the time of explaining in detail, read here first. You will see that tapwater contains, although benign to us humans, unacceptably high levels of phosphate, nitrate, and silica, all of which are algal nutrients. Moreover, you can see that the copper concentration is already at a level detrimental to the health of marine invertebrates. As someone already suggested, that copper level is only going to increase with time in your system, and a refugium with macroalgae isn't going to help you too much in the heavy metal department.
As for chloramines, the notion that you add a chemical and chlormines simply poof and vanish is also 100% incorrect. The most common fish application chloramine remover is sodium thiosulfate (the thisulfate ion, S2O3-- is the business end of the compund). Sodium thiosulfate reacts with chloramine to yield (are you ready for this?) ammonia!
S2O3-- + 4NH2Cl + 5H2O ---> 2SO4-- + 2H+ + 4HCl + 4NH3
And as you should have read, if the ammonia doesn't harm you acutely, the microbial colony will oxidize it to nitrate, which again is an algal nutrient.
I resent the monkey-see mentality that many reefers adopt, but RO/DI units are not one of those mindless follow the leader phenomena.
In closing:
No, I am not an RO/DI manufacturer or stock owner,
Yes, don't waste anymore time with tap water and go buy an RO/DI unit, and
No, you will not be able to keep a succesful reef aquaria with MWRA tapwater
Matt
Matt L.
Non-member
If the notion of using tap water wasn't dead already
Matt
Dr. Randy Homlmes Farley had.davidrupe said:
Matt
Scuba_Dave
Non-member
I think many people forget about the long term effects & build up. Since a lot of people are always upgrading (the 125g is my 4th tank since Jan 2003), it isn't a problem in the short run.
But if you intend to keep tank up & running for 10 years (my next LAST tank!! ??) then you have to look into long term effects.
I'm going to be running a new PVC feed (right after the meter) for my RO/DI to eliminate copper pipe run. Then I am going to put a pre-filter on before my RO/DI. In addition a whole house filter will be installed. I get rust colored water when I turn on my hot water full blast (probably never cleaned out yearly). Plus my 1st filter clogs up in less then 6 months. I'm installing my 3rd filter since I moved in Nov 2003 (the 1st one had been in use for a while but was fine).
I don't know if RO/DI got rid of my cyano. I upgraded my lights from 45w NO, to 130w PC, to 250w MH around the same time, increased my flow from 10x to 26x, did 20%-30% water changes after switching to RO/DI. Added a large tang in there somewhere.
Kind of hard to decide what did what when you have a contantly changing system
But if you intend to keep tank up & running for 10 years (my next LAST tank!! ??) then you have to look into long term effects.
I'm going to be running a new PVC feed (right after the meter) for my RO/DI to eliminate copper pipe run. Then I am going to put a pre-filter on before my RO/DI. In addition a whole house filter will be installed. I get rust colored water when I turn on my hot water full blast (probably never cleaned out yearly). Plus my 1st filter clogs up in less then 6 months. I'm installing my 3rd filter since I moved in Nov 2003 (the 1st one had been in use for a while but was fine).
I don't know if RO/DI got rid of my cyano. I upgraded my lights from 45w NO, to 130w PC, to 250w MH around the same time, increased my flow from 10x to 26x, did 20%-30% water changes after switching to RO/DI. Added a large tang in there somewhere.
Kind of hard to decide what did what when you have a contantly changing system
TheUltimateNoob
TheUltimateNoob
nice matt! cornell represent! haha. 
Matt, thank you so much for adding a bit more technical detail to the conversation. I like to make a decision, especially when it comes to spending money, and be able to defend the decision, not just do something cuz everybody else does or someone tells me I 'should'.
The algae does not bother me and can be removed if the need occurs. The thing that does get me is the metals in the water. Anybody (Matt) know how much metal/copper is toxic to inverts and how much is toxic to fish, in ppm? This way I can calculate how long it will take before my water becomes toxic. If it is 10 years, I don't care cuz I am moving in about 5 so it won't effect me in the least. Assuming that is, that I don't mind the algea or can controll it in another way.
Another question (Matt) is how many ppm of the heavy metals can be supported in solution before the excess is precipitated to my sand bed? Non dissolved metals can't hurt the fish. Unless they are sand sifters and are sifting in the metals.
The algae does not bother me and can be removed if the need occurs. The thing that does get me is the metals in the water. Anybody (Matt) know how much metal/copper is toxic to inverts and how much is toxic to fish, in ppm? This way I can calculate how long it will take before my water becomes toxic. If it is 10 years, I don't care cuz I am moving in about 5 so it won't effect me in the least. Assuming that is, that I don't mind the algea or can controll it in another way.
Another question (Matt) is how many ppm of the heavy metals can be supported in solution before the excess is precipitated to my sand bed? Non dissolved metals can't hurt the fish. Unless they are sand sifters and are sifting in the metals.
TheUltimateNoob
TheUltimateNoob
i just think that an ro/di unit is not that big of an investment compared to all the money we spend on lights, skimmer, etc.
You are right Peter. That is why everybody just adds it to the list of to-buy items. You know the one that gets longer instead of shorter.
Nobody told me this hobbie was cheap, that is for sure. I just don't want to build a dependency in my tank on repeat costs. Chemicals and other addatives or equipment that has a monthly or bimonthly cost to it. I don't mind the one time hit, lights, skimmer, pump. It is the repeat offenders that get me. That is why if something needs special chemicals or addatives, I prolly won't put it in my tank.
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TheUltimateNoob
TheUltimateNoob
haha. so true. but the flip side of my argument is that it's the little things that keep building up that make this hobby so expensive.
Moe_K
Stabbed by Foulke
Calcium and carbonate are two substances you'll have to pump into a reef tank. That's especially true if you keep SPS corals or clams. No way to get around it.davidrupe said:
You are right Peter. That is why everybody just adds it to the list of to-buy items. You know the one that gets longer instead of shorter.
Nobody told me this hobbie was cheap, that is for sure. I just don't want to build a dependency in my tank on repeat costs. Chemicals and other addatives or equipment that has a monthly or bimonthly cost to it. I don't mind the one time hit, lights, skimmer, pump. It is the repeat offenders that get me. That is why if something needs special chemicals or addatives, I prolly won't put it in my tank.
TheUltimateNoob
TheUltimateNoob
moe is right. i use so much b-ionic for a 29g tank it's disgusting. gonna start dripping kalk i think.
I didn't like tropical isle anyways. I went there last weekend. Lots of equipment, but the fish just didn't look great and they all seemed to be the same, just more of them in different tanks. The place in Revere has the best selection I have seen.
Do you have to add calcium to your tank to grow coraline algea?
So in summary, if you don't mind the algea or solve the algea problem some other way, plants or phosphate removers...etc, tap water is ok. Won't kill anything.
However, it is highly likely that the metals will accumulate over time, thus eventually hurting your tank after a long amount of time. How long and how much of the metals, how fast the build up, is all unknown.
If you don't like algea, don't use tap. Odds are you will have more problems with it.
If you use tap, you risk metal build up that may or may not hurt your livestock and it might, but only after an extended amount of time.
Sounds like i am going to use tap for a bit longer, till after the cycle and maybe get myself an early Christmas present so I don't have to make trips to and from the LFS to BUY water.
Thanks All!!!
Oh, any more technical info on how much metal is toxic and how quickly it builds up or long term effects would be greatly appreciated.
Do you have to add calcium to your tank to grow coraline algea?
So in summary, if you don't mind the algea or solve the algea problem some other way, plants or phosphate removers...etc, tap water is ok. Won't kill anything.
However, it is highly likely that the metals will accumulate over time, thus eventually hurting your tank after a long amount of time. How long and how much of the metals, how fast the build up, is all unknown.
If you don't like algea, don't use tap. Odds are you will have more problems with it.
If you use tap, you risk metal build up that may or may not hurt your livestock and it might, but only after an extended amount of time.
Sounds like i am going to use tap for a bit longer, till after the cycle and maybe get myself an early Christmas present so I don't have to make trips to and from the LFS to BUY water.
Thanks All!!!
Oh, any more technical info on how much metal is toxic and how quickly it builds up or long term effects would be greatly appreciated.
NateHanson
Non-member
davidrupe said:
Read the Randy Holmes Farley article that people have linked for you above. It tells you how much copper is deadly to some invertebrates. And it tells you what some typical copper levels are in tap water. It's fact that copper kills inverts at low levels, and his article gives many examples of tap copper levels that are well above the lethal level.
Nate
dedfish
That's Mr.Murphy to you!
matt said:
When I first decided to get into this hobby I started reading. Then I did some more reading. When I was done doing that you know what I did...I started reading again. Every monkey I read about said the same thing it is bad to use tap water...bad..bad..bad!! They said if you don't want problems with algae then you shouldn't use tap water. Especially if you live in a city or old house. All these monkeys kept telling the other monkeys that they needed to use RO water at the very least and RO/DI if available. This topic is covered at lesat every 12 mins on RC. The only people I have seen having success with tap water are people with wells and that depends on where they live.
So I'll just change my monkey see, monkey do! to monkey read, read, and read some more and do!
I read the Randy Homlmes article. Very good info. After doing the monkey read read read as deadfish calls it, I have concluded that the only good reason to go to RO/DI water is the fact that you really don't know what is going to happen if you don't. Thus, you invest in more equipment (RO/DI) to avoid a posible, not even necessarily a gaurenteed problem. Oh, and a bonus is less unsightly algea, that is of course if you believe it unsightly.
Thanks for the info everybody!
Thanks for the info everybody!
My LFS told me to use tap water, RO water is a waste of money. Of course, that is the time when they try to sell me a 6 gallon Nemo tank for $380 on sale.
And they told me never buy fish (fresh water) for petco even though they charge twice as much and don't not offer any warrenty.
Petco is not the only evil place, some LFS are worst.
And they told me never buy fish (fresh water) for petco even though they charge twice as much and don't not offer any warrenty.
Petco is not the only evil place, some LFS are worst.
i work at petco, does that make me evil Similar threads
