Ich in brand new flame angel please help

[michaelmanni]

I have only had my flame for about five days. It is showing white spots on its head tail and fins. I just bought it from Something fishy. I should have left it there for two weeks, but I took it home only after it had been there for 3 days. They said it was enough time but after reading up on this fish, I should have waited longer. MY FAULT. It hasn't eaten what I have offered (Flake food or formula 1 frozen) They were feeding it the formula 1. It is picking on the rocks. I have one cleaner shrimp and it has been going over to it, like it wants the shrimp to clean it, but the shrimp has been reluctant to do so. The shrimp was only introduced yesterday with a fire shrimp BEFORE I noticed the white spots. So maybe the shrimp will take care of it??????? Maybe He (the cleaner shrimp) is just not comfortable in the tank yet?? I have two other clowns which I have had for two months. Those are my only fish. The angel is twice the size of the clowns he has pleanty of caves and holes to hide in yet he seems comfortable enough in the tank to swim in the front. My water temp ranges between 78.5 - 79. I have
1 brown zooanthers
1 frog spawn
3 mushrooms
and a short tenticle plate
4 pepermint
1 pistol
1 fire
1 cleaner
8 various snails
1 conch
1.025 salinity
29 gal biocube

I don't want to use chemicals in my tank. Do i need to set up another smaller quarentine tank, If so what do I need to buy? Could I use a bucket with a pump and a heater? Is my whole tank already infected??? If i remove it will my tank be ok right away. I just noticed spots yesterday.

Thank you

 

[JohnK]

First off there are different ways to approach this, and usually the worst mistake is to rush into it without a clear plan and or in a panic.

Probably the most common approach is to "manage" the ick, which basically means live with it but encourage the fish to become as resistant as possible so that the infection stays minimal. The advantage is that you don't kill fish by super stressing them out during treatments. The disadvantage is that the ick never goes away and even if you stop seeing spots, it's likely to flare up again whenever the tank is stressed one way or the other.

The other approach is to treat the fish with the goal being to eradicate the parisite. This requires removing ALL the fish and treating them in a seperate QT/hospital tank. Treatment is EITHER Copper or hyposalinity, NOT both. Meanwhile the display tank must stay 100% fish free for at least 8 weeks, with longer being safer.

FWIW, cleaner shrimp don't eat the parisite, the eat the damaged tissue caused by the parisite. Cleaner shrimp will not wipe a parisite out.
And yes, you should consider the whole tank infected now. There is probably a slight chance that it's only on the one fish, but don't count on it. If just one single cyst dropped, that will release plenty of free swimmers to infect the tank.

I would suggest reading up on the "Managment" and "eradication" approaches and make an edjucated decision. For now, feed well, try to keep things stable and don't mess with the tank too much. Create a low stress environment as much as possible while you read up. If you do decide to treat/"eradicate", I would suggest getting a good sized QT set up, cycled, and stabilized before attempting to move the fish. Plenty of fish have been killed trying to treat in a hurry.

Good luck.

 

[gweston]

Edited: John responded first.. but our answers are very similar:

Have any pics? Sometimes white spots can be fungus too.

As for ich:

Try to feed all the fish well, supplement with vitamins and maybe garlic. If its immune system is strong, it may fight it off and you can try to keep ich at bay by keeping the fish healthy. Some people go the keep it healthy and let it take it's course route. If the shrimp is new, it may not be comfortable yet. It may help clean the parasites, but it won't eradicate ich.

The other alternative is to go through an ich treatment regimen for the entire tank. The tank now has ich and the clowns will potentially be susceptible. Ich can potentially return in the future. It won't go away unless it is eradicated through quarantine/treatment. It takes time, and patience. The process sucks.

This board and others should have details.. but basically ich is no fun.

example:
-set up a quarantine tank of appropriate size and move all fish to it (no liverock or sand, use PVC for hiding spots). It is suggested that tanks treated with copper should not be used as a display tank, or house invertebrates. Copper can be toxic to snails/shrimp, etc. Leave them in the display.
-treat quarantined fish with cupramine/copper
-Let the display tank go fallow (fishless) for 6+ weeks. The longer the better. This allows for the ich to go through a lifecycle and completely die off. As they depend on the fish to survive, if there are none they will die off. It is critical to wait long enough and to not rush.
-hope for the best.

But as with anything take caution and do research before treatment. I am unsure how well the flame tolerates copper treatment. The clowns would be ok with it. Some fish just can't handle copper. Careful on some of the ich remedies out there. They may not be effective. The word 'on the street' that I keep seeing repeated is that copper and quarantine is the only way. Some people swear by other products.

I don't have ich thankfully, my current system is ~9 months old and I quarantined before adding to the display. I suspect a lot of people have ich. Whether they know it or not. It seems like it is just something that happens in the hobby and we have to deal with it the best we can.

I love flame angels too... always wanted to get one. Hopefully he/she is doing ok. If you see odd behavior, fast breathing, etc. Jump to meds. The fish may not survive otherwise. You may be able to give the fish some relief with a medicated dip too. There are some discussions on that around the web. Maybe Formalin MS?

Careful with hyposalinity treatment. It seems difficult to me and is risky without strictly maintaining salinity/ph.

 

[michaelmanni]

I know hindsight is 20/20, but did I cause this or was this fish most likely infected before hand? Could a uv sterilizer have helped?
I am thinking i need a qt set up using my water, some sand, a hide box to keep down stress ect. I should have one anyways.
When you say a good sized QT tank...... is 10 gal. enough???
Does this effect anything besides fish??? Are the corals and inverts immune? Can anyone recommend some good books or articles?

 

[michaelmanni]

john,

I'm at work. When I get home i'll post a picture. Now I know why people quarentine fish. Fish in my tank, although they are part of a reef, for me, are an after thought. I was so corncerned about keeping the perfect conditions for my corals (tank is only 3 1/2 months old) that I neglected a basic husbandry for the fish. I am *(&%* at myself.

 

[JohnK]

UV may help a little to manage it, but it will do nothing to eradicate. The UV only kills what passes through it, whereas the parisite is in all the water and on the substrate and rocks.

Fish parisites in general do not bother or reproduce on corals or inverts. Because of that, leaving a tank fishless for long enough will cause the parisite to die out.

The fish may have had it when you got it, or the pairiste may have already been in your tank at a low level and it then promptly showed up on the new fish that was stressed from it's journey from the sea to your tank. Chicken or egg really, it doesn't matter now.

I don't know what books may be available that are up to date on fish disease treatment. There are a lot of articles and such online. Watch out for mis-info/myth-info, but it's not hard to sort out fact from fiction. Anything that says that UV, cleaners, "reef safe" medications, or garlic will CURE, is wrong. Watch out for those give aways and you'll quickly sort out the reliable articles from the non-sense. I'm at work now, but I'll try to find a couple of good links later when I'm home.

 

[jackthestrat]

Search for "treat ich" and read one of the many hundred posts that already exist on the subject.

 

[mnavick]

Know you're not interested in chemicals but figure I would post this incase you might change your mind.
I purchased a CBB a while back and QT'd him for about 3 weeks. Once moved to my DT developed ICH. Local fish store advised using Herbtana Microbe-Lift.
http://www.microbelift.com/products/new-products/home-aquarium/herbtana/herbtana-reef/
Did the recommended 10 days with a fully established tank (corals,LR,Fish you name it) and he is Ich free (granted it is never really gone).
Not sure if I cought it early or got lucky, or both but did work.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[michaelmanni]

Update with photo possible ich flame angel

It was really hard to get a good picture so i took several ok pictures. A couple of them show spots on the fins. I tried to feed live brine shrimp tonight and the angel didn't touch it. So far i have struck out in the feeding department. I know he has been eating stuff off the rocks, but i would feel better to see him eating something else. So far formula 1 frozen or flake and brine shrimp with 0 success I read Emerald entree was good for flames angels. Anyone have any luck with that?? I want to see him eat because he has no chance of fighting this thing if he is not eating....

As far as the photos go, does this look like white spot (ich).???
I also had a picture of a snail that i found in my tank about a month ago, he is in the middle of the photo...a little tough to make out but he seems harmless anyone know what it is??? Or if it isn't safe.

 

[Blueflu1]

I agree with John. If you do go the QT Tank route, I have had excellent luck with Hyposalinity but you have to be very careful with it.

I don't see much on those pics that looks like ich. Maybe a few spots on the tail but it is hard to tell from those shots. Is he rubbing against rocks and stuff?

 

[michaelmanni]

Rubbing

No,
he hasn't rubbed I seen him do it a couple of times when i first introduced him into the tank. Anyone with any ideas on the feeding thing??

 

[tooth]

Kick Ick. It has worked for me in the past.