Is it worth it?, Benefits of a large sump?

[emabie]

My post asking for opinions on my plumbing design has left me wondering if a large, 300g sump is worth it.

The post can be read here and contains my proposed set up.
(http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=84353)

My question is now weather the benefits from an extra 300g of water volume are worth the price of heating, pumping and otherwise maintaining it.

My proposed system is:
180g display
55g fuge
75g equipment sump (for skimmer heater ect)
300g plastic water container

All but the display are in a finished "fish room" in the above grade basement. Space is not a concern here.

I know the extra water will make for a more stable system. Less temp swings when lights are on / off. More stable pH ect.

I know there are a few people here with similar large systems or who have had them. So would you keep the extra water or just go without the 300g sump?

I am rebuilding after a total loss from the December ice storm (generator getting installed this month ) The previous system just had the 180g with a 40g sump/fuge in the basement.

The plan is to focus on more "non-reef-safe" fish (morey eel, lion fish, triggers angels ect) but also not rule out some softies or sps at some point.

I think the extra water would help keep the tank stable when adding more fish but not sure if it's worth the cost. (I have all the equipment it's just not plumbed just yet)

 

[Jocko]

Well I think it's safe to say you understand the benefits since you are considering it in the first place. Perhaps we could approach this from the standpoint of "how do I reduce the costs?"

Example: could the 300g container be insulated to greatly reduce the heating/cooling cost of the extra water?

Does the extra water actually require a larger main circulation pump? If so, can the system be designed in such a way that a larger pump would not be necessary?

 

[emabie]

Well I think it's safe to say you understand the benefits since you are considering it in the first place. Perhaps we could approach this from the standpoint of "how do I reduce the costs?"

Example: could the 300g container be insulated to greatly reduce the heating/cooling cost of the extra water?

Does the extra water actually require a larger main circulation pump? If so, can the system be designed in such a way that a larger pump would not be necessary?

This is one way to look at it. I guess the only reason I am second guessing the large sump is cost. I don't think there will be to much extra work, in fact I think more water is less work, to some degree.

I planned on insulating the sump. The bottom is raised above the floor and the back and bottom that is not accessible once installed has sheets of insulation glued to it. I was thinking of making some kind of blanket, or perhaps just warping it with fiberglass insulation for the winter.

I ran into more overheating issues than not enough heat with the old 40g sump.

As far as the return pump I have the reeflow hammer head and planned to turn down the flow to increase the efficiency of the pump.

 

[frank180reef]

I have a 300g sump that I never plumbed in, guess I didnt want to heat it in the winter as it is in my unfinished basement. The basement gets down to 45 or so in February

 

[Takara]

I'm more of a nano /pico guy, but I don't see the reason for it. I think you have enough volume as it is, and more piping/wiring just is problems waiting to happen.

Also I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to pipe another display or fuge or frag tank into the system if you really wanted to add some more volume, they could actually be used for something useful.

 

[Joel A]

i think that the benefits of it are good.. and to promote overall system stability it's a great thing...

however i think you're not considering a few major factors here...

the first thing for me is water changes... you're going to HAVE to set up another large tank and set up some sort of easy quick water change method.. even 55 gallons wont make a real dent on a system of that size... What happens if something goes wrong, and you need to make a large water change..???

Another thing about water changes, and the large water volume in general is the salt you need to add to it... that's a good deal of expenses in salt alone.

Also, if you ever do decide to go with a reef tank, you'll need a very large calcium reactor or what have you to keep calcium and alkalinity supplied to all of that water.

 

[Leroy]

610 total gallons of water minus 30% for rock and sand in the 180 will give you roughly 555 gallons of water that will require a 10% water change of 55 gallons. Consider how much of a water bill for the water change and top off. Then the amount of salt you'll be stocking up on. Then the calcium, alkalinity and magnesium for the water volume to be dosed. Menbrane, RO resin, filters. Also consider if the tank needs to be treated if anything happens to occur, cyano or if a pest gets by you. Make the 55 the sump and the 75 the refugium loaded with pods and cheato with a potential within the 75 to set up a frag area. If money and time is no object for how much you'll put into the hobby then balls to the walls and go for it. Just my .02.

 

[Leroy]

Posted mine not seeing Joel's thread and seen that his response is on the same thought for water volume.

 

[MisFit]

I think if you stock it with appropriate fish for a 180 or maybe just a little more, but have 555 gallons of water you dont need to do massive waterchanges, just keep up the water changes that you would normally do for a 180, dont get lazy, and you shouldnt ever have problems with nuisance algae or high nitrates. Alkalinity and calcium dosing could become costly, but as you said your not really planning on a reef. I dont really see it being an issue other than the potential heating problems.

 

[MisFit]

What happens if something goes wrong, and you need to make a large water change..???

I look at it this way if something bad happens in your tank that would require you to change a large volume of water in a 180, that extra 375 gallons of water you have in the system is probably going to save your livestock and prevent you from actually having to do a massive water change.

 

[JohnK]

Cost reduction... Run the 300G in the summer, and take it off line in the winter. That way there would be virtually no extra cost (at least for heat or pumps), but the summer temps would be far less of a concern.

If set up that way, you could also take the 300G on and off line for water changes (ie, when you want to do a water change, take the 300 off line, change %50 of that water, then put it back on line).

Just some random thoughts...

 

[stingythingy45]

It would take 1665 watts of heaters to keep that volume heated in the winter.
That's going by the 3 watt per gallon rule.
JMO,but I think you should just pick up a rubbermaid 100 gallon stock tank.

 

[Jocko]

It would take 1665 watts of heaters to keep that volume heated in the winter.
That's going by the 3 watt per gallon rule.
JMO,but I think you should just pick up a rubbermaid 100 gallon stock tank.

I think a well insulated and enclosed container of water would not have the same watt/gallon requirements of an open-topped all-glass container sitting in the middle of a room. In fact I would think it would be a very tiny fraction. Although that's just a guess. I don't know specifics.

 

[emabie]

I think a well insulated and enclosed container of water would not have the same watt/gallon requirements of an open-topped all-glass container sitting in the middle of a room. In fact I would think it would be a very tiny fraction. Although that's just a guess. I don't know specifics.

I am thinking the same here. I plan to wrap the closed plastic tank with fiberglass insulation and the back and bottom that are inaccessible have the pink Styrofoam rigid insulation attached. I figure this will require allot less heat than an all glass tank open at the top.

In the summer the insulation will be off and I hope to eliminate the overheat issues I had with only 40g sump volume.

I was having many more high temp issues with the old system. The only under temp I saw was when a heater crashed.

The extra water volume should really help to mitigate the adverse affects that some "emergency water changes" are needed for.

Worst case I can turn off the sump and do a water change.

As far as a water bill I am not too concerned as I have a private well system so no bill there. I know the salt for the initial set up won't be cheap but I am looking to make the most stable system I can.

 

[Joel A]

I like John's idea of setting up the 300 gallon tank so you can take it offline and then add it back online...

makes a lot of sense when it comes to water changes...

 

[Joel A]

I look at it this way if something bad happens in your tank that would require you to change a large volume of water in a 180, that extra 375 gallons of water you have in the system is probably going to save your livestock and prevent you from actually having to do a massive water change.

This is true to some extent... but not if you get anything really bad in there, like copper... or chlorine, etc.

The ocean works under that principle that since it's such a huge mass of water it takes a huge mass of chemicals to make any real dents in invertebrate populations... but 600 gallons of water is not a lot of water at all when talking about serious chemicals...it just seems like a lot of water to us hobbyists .


However at the same time, what is the likely hood that the original poster would manage to get anything that harmful into the tank in the first place? Shouldn't be a key factor.. but just a thought.

some more likely scenarios in which you may want to do a large water change (greater than 20% total tank volume) would be if something "nuked" the tank like a cucumber or sea hare/ sea apple etc. Or since it's going to be an aggressive species tank if say maybe one fish killed another and there was a large ammonia spike? Another situation that was already mentioned was a cyano or hair algae out break..

 

[emabie]

AFter thinking about it I am going to give it a go. I think the benefits out weigh the cost.

As far as water changes, I figure I can just pump water out of the large sump, probably up to 200g (not that I plan to do 200g changes monthly) while whole system is still running and just add new water into the sump.

No need to take anything ofline or disconnect anything, just let the level drop in the large sump till I add the new water.

 

[Joel A]

just out of curiosity... you have to hard plumb to the 300 gallon tank anyways... why not just add a few ball valves so you can take it completely off line?

 

[emabie]

just out of curiosity... you have to hard plumb to the 300 gallon tank anyways... why not just add a few ball valves so you can take it completely off line?

I am not sure how I could take the large sump totally offline with just a few more valves.

I would have to divert the drains from the 2 smaller sumps to the input of the return pump and I don't think that would work to well. How would it pull water correctly
how does one connect 2 separate sumps to one return pump and t the pump to return water at the same rate? I see this as asking for one sump to overflow whille one goes dry.

 

[IPWitan]

In tanking it offline, you could simply replace it with something much smaller, such as a 20 gal tank.

I like the idea of a frag tank to create extra water and stability. But then again, maybe I want a frag tank...

Good luck