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More lighting opinions needed - DE XM vs AB?
- Thread starter Greg Hiller
- Start date
OP
OP
Dennis,
Thanks for the link, looks like no problems purchasing the Sun Aquatics bulbs. I really don't know why their site didn't pop up towards the top in a Google search. Perhaps they haven't paid Google enough!!
So I went back to Sanjay's site and ran the numbers again on these bulbs:
All on the Icecap ballasts (I do not want to purchase new ballasts)
Bulb PPFD/PAR.......Color temp.....Efficiency
Aqualine Buschke 250W 10000K DE 1.....101..... 9309...... 0.4122
Sun Aquatics 250W 10000K DE 1........99......... 5396...... 0.4737
XDE 250W 10000K DE 1....................121.........7541......0.4783
I've not seen the Sun Aquatics bulbs on any tanks. Too bad Joe V. didn't have his main lights on when I visited his tank last. The data above suggests that the Sun Aquatics bulb is clearly very efficient and puts out some great light for growth, but the color temp might be hard to live with without a lot of actinic supplementation (and I know Joe V. has TONS of this). I used to run the Iwaski SE 250 Watters on the Icecap ballast, and those in Sanjay's tests come out to 7209 K color temp. Looking back now they looked awfully yellow to my eye. The Sun Aquatics at 5396 K might be hard to 'swallow'. Still, the color might look different to the EYE than to Sanjay's equipment. The cost of the Sun Aquatics bulbs is great, but I really do not want to add any actinics to my lighting set up, because as I mentioned above, I've seen too many close calls with the end caps melting down and nearly catching on fire.
I'm leaning toward the AB DE's now, mostly due to the color temp.
Thanks for the link, looks like no problems purchasing the Sun Aquatics bulbs. I really don't know why their site didn't pop up towards the top in a Google search. Perhaps they haven't paid Google enough!!
So I went back to Sanjay's site and ran the numbers again on these bulbs:
All on the Icecap ballasts (I do not want to purchase new ballasts)
Bulb PPFD/PAR.......Color temp.....Efficiency
Aqualine Buschke 250W 10000K DE 1.....101..... 9309...... 0.4122
Sun Aquatics 250W 10000K DE 1........99......... 5396...... 0.4737
XDE 250W 10000K DE 1....................121.........7541......0.4783
I've not seen the Sun Aquatics bulbs on any tanks. Too bad Joe V. didn't have his main lights on when I visited his tank last. The data above suggests that the Sun Aquatics bulb is clearly very efficient and puts out some great light for growth, but the color temp might be hard to live with without a lot of actinic supplementation (and I know Joe V. has TONS of this). I used to run the Iwaski SE 250 Watters on the Icecap ballast, and those in Sanjay's tests come out to 7209 K color temp. Looking back now they looked awfully yellow to my eye. The Sun Aquatics at 5396 K might be hard to 'swallow'. Still, the color might look different to the EYE than to Sanjay's equipment. The cost of the Sun Aquatics bulbs is great, but I really do not want to add any actinics to my lighting set up, because as I mentioned above, I've seen too many close calls with the end caps melting down and nearly catching on fire.
I'm leaning toward the AB DE's now, mostly due to the color temp.
RichConley
Attack of the Killer Cute
Responce i got from Sun Aquatics:
We carry HQI bulbs 250 watts in 10K/14/and 20K.
They are 37.50USD each S&H for first item is 12.95USD and for each additional item it is 2USD more.
Total for 1 bulb 50.45USD
Total for 2 will be 89.95USD
Total for 3 bulbs will be 127.45USD.
If you are interested in ourchasing you can send payment using paypal to sales@sunaquatics.com and indicate the wattage type and CCT of the bulb desired. We ship items in 2 days and it takes 12 business days for the items to be dellivered.
The prodcuts come with 6 months warranty against manufacturing defects.
Thanks
Venki
We carry HQI bulbs 250 watts in 10K/14/and 20K.
They are 37.50USD each S&H for first item is 12.95USD and for each additional item it is 2USD more.
Total for 1 bulb 50.45USD
Total for 2 will be 89.95USD
Total for 3 bulbs will be 127.45USD.
If you are interested in ourchasing you can send payment using paypal to sales@sunaquatics.com and indicate the wattage type and CCT of the bulb desired. We ship items in 2 days and it takes 12 business days for the items to be dellivered.
The prodcuts come with 6 months warranty against manufacturing defects.
Thanks
Venki
RichConley
Attack of the Killer Cute
Sanjay doesnt seem to have any color temp numbers for bulbs higher than 10K color temp. Do you think a 14K sun aquatics bulb would be similar in color to one of the other 10K bulbs?
Maybe it is just my eyes, but I like the look of the Sun Aquatics 10K and will buy more when I need to replace them. I do not run actinics either. They appear to be white to me and are no where near the yellow color that an Iwasaki 6500K mogul puts out. So, although I believe the data that Sanjay posted, I do not see that color on my tank.
I will take a few shots of my tank tonight and post pictures.
I will take a few shots of my tank tonight and post pictures.
Chuck Spyropulos
Non-member
When I switched to DE, I bought AB 10,000K 250's from Champion, against Perry's recommendation. I had been using SE 10,000 ABs for so long I did not want to switch since they seemed to be the purest white running on the Bluelines.
However, I should have listened to Perry. The AB DE 10,000K bulbs are REALLY Green (Not even yellow !)when used in conjunction with the Blueline Electronic Ballasts. Not sure about other bulb/ballast combinations. I have since switched to Iwasaki DE 10,000K and they are pure white and much more pleasing to the eye. I do not run any actinics for blue wavelength light supplementation.
However, I should have listened to Perry. The AB DE 10,000K bulbs are REALLY Green (Not even yellow !)when used in conjunction with the Blueline Electronic Ballasts. Not sure about other bulb/ballast combinations. I have since switched to Iwasaki DE 10,000K and they are pure white and much more pleasing to the eye. I do not run any actinics for blue wavelength light supplementation.
OP
OP
GREEN!!!! Oh, man, I don't want that! I will go back and see what the color temp was of the ballast and lamp you were running....too many people on his site at the moment apparently, because I'm getting some kind of error!
I will also have to see about the Iwaski 10 K DE. These must be ?new? bulbs?
I will also have to see about the Iwaski 10 K DE. These must be ?new? bulbs?
OP
OP
Looks like Sanjay has never tested a blueline ballast, only blueline bulbs.
Data for the 14K Sun Aquatics suggests not much bang for the buck. Efficiency at 0.19 is way low. Might work as a good heater for your tank in the winter!
Sun Aquatics 250W 20000K DE 1 Icecap 250W Electronic Y 50 0 252 121 2.3 0.1984
Data for the 14K Sun Aquatics suggests not much bang for the buck. Efficiency at 0.19 is way low. Might work as a good heater for your tank in the winter!
Sun Aquatics 250W 20000K DE 1 Icecap 250W Electronic Y 50 0 252 121 2.3 0.1984
Chuck Spyropulos
Non-member
Ooooops! I meant to say I switched to Ushio DE 10,000K bulbs!
Sorry 'bout that!
Sorry 'bout that!
OP
OP
Groove,
Hey, thanks for the invite. I've also had an invite to look at the 10K Sun Aquatics DE. I think I'll take you both up on it as I have most of the next two weeks off! Could you please PM or email me your phone number? What type of reflector do you have them in?
Chuck,
Thanks for the clarification on the bulb, I would have gone nuts looking for it! I knew that Iwaski put out some new bulb recently, but I think it was a lower wattage, and very high color temp bulbs.
Hey, thanks for the invite. I've also had an invite to look at the 10K Sun Aquatics DE. I think I'll take you both up on it as I have most of the next two weeks off! Could you please PM or email me your phone number? What type of reflector do you have them in?
Chuck,
Thanks for the clarification on the bulb, I would have gone nuts looking for it! I knew that Iwaski put out some new bulb recently, but I think it was a lower wattage, and very high color temp bulbs.
OP
OP
Chuck,
Looks like the Ushio burns pretty blue on the Icecap (11,500 K), but is not quite as efficient (0.31) on the Icecap ballast as the bulbs I've listed above, still a good bulb though, particularly if you do not have much blue from other sources.
Looks like the Ushio burns pretty blue on the Icecap (11,500 K), but is not quite as efficient (0.31) on the Icecap ballast as the bulbs I've listed above, still a good bulb though, particularly if you do not have much blue from other sources.
Chuck Spyropulos
Non-member
Wow!
Wow, 31% is not that great! Has anyone tested these bulbs on the blueline ballasts? Probably not, but worth asking!
Wow, 31% is not that great! Has anyone tested these bulbs on the blueline ballasts? Probably not, but worth asking!
Greg Hiller said:
OP
OP
Chuck,
It is possible that the blueline bulbs were manufactured to be particularly efficient on the blueline ballasts, we just have no independent data to know for sure. Keep in mind that the efficiency numbers are not really % efficiency, they are simply the PPFD (PAR) divided by the watts consumed. I'm sure you could calculate Actual % efficiency if you knew the conversion factor for Sanjay's units of PPFD. You also have to be careful to compare only shielded bulbs to shielded bulbs, or unshielded to unshielded.
So, that means that the most efficient bulbs in the 250 W version, the Iwaski SE 6500 K on a PFO HQI ballast has an efficiency # of 0.5067, compared with one of the least efficient say the Giesemann 250W 20000K DE on the Icecap ballast with an efficiency # of 0.1371. The Iwasaki is 369% more efficient than Giesemann. Of course the comparison I just made is not really fair since the Giesemann 20K bulb is designed to put out blue light, and such bulbs are always at a disadvantage when competing with lower color temp bulbs. A lot of it depends upon how much yellow you can put up with in your bulb!!
It is possible that the blueline bulbs were manufactured to be particularly efficient on the blueline ballasts, we just have no independent data to know for sure. Keep in mind that the efficiency numbers are not really % efficiency, they are simply the PPFD (PAR) divided by the watts consumed. I'm sure you could calculate Actual % efficiency if you knew the conversion factor for Sanjay's units of PPFD. You also have to be careful to compare only shielded bulbs to shielded bulbs, or unshielded to unshielded.
So, that means that the most efficient bulbs in the 250 W version, the Iwaski SE 6500 K on a PFO HQI ballast has an efficiency # of 0.5067, compared with one of the least efficient say the Giesemann 250W 20000K DE on the Icecap ballast with an efficiency # of 0.1371. The Iwasaki is 369% more efficient than Giesemann. Of course the comparison I just made is not really fair since the Giesemann 20K bulb is designed to put out blue light, and such bulbs are always at a disadvantage when competing with lower color temp bulbs. A lot of it depends upon how much yellow you can put up with in your bulb!!
Calciumbuf
Pro Stealth PM'R
Greg Have you ever considered BLV's? I run 3 AB 10k's and 3 ab 20K's over my 210,and love the color, on my 140 I run two Blv's and they are much crisper than compared to the AB's.
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OP
OP
Calciumbuf,
How do you blend the color of 6 bulbs on your tank? Do you just put them close together? Are you using all DE bulbs? What type of ballast are you using?
I've added the data for the BLV bulbs on an Icecap ballast below. They are not very efficient, but again, they have a color temp that is more blue than the AB's....it's all a trade off in the end I guess. Are the BLV bulbs readily available, are they expensive?
I'm just really worried about Chuck's mention of the green color of the AB's. I know for him it was on a Blueline ballast. Calciumbuf, if you are running the AB 10K's by themselves, assuming you are using an Icecap ballast, what does the color look like? The problem with the spectral data that Sanjay acquires is it's possible for the K ratings of two bulbs to be indentical, but the color of the bulb to our eyes to look different, depending upon which wavelengths are represented, and how our eyes perceive them. I'm going to have to get going and view some folks tanks. Unfortunately, as I recall, you are a LONG haul off from where I live.
Bulb.............................................PPFD (PAR)..color temp (K)...efficiency
Aqualine Buschke 250W 10000K DE 1.....101..... 9309............. 0.4122
Sun Aquatics 250W 10000K DE 1........99......... 5396............. 0.4737
XDE 250W 10000K DE 1....................121.........7541..............0.4783
HIT (BLV) 250W 10000K DE 1 ............81 ..........10014...........0.3320
Ushio 250W 10000K DE 1 .................78 ...........11521.......... 0.3145
How do you blend the color of 6 bulbs on your tank? Do you just put them close together? Are you using all DE bulbs? What type of ballast are you using?
I've added the data for the BLV bulbs on an Icecap ballast below. They are not very efficient, but again, they have a color temp that is more blue than the AB's....it's all a trade off in the end I guess. Are the BLV bulbs readily available, are they expensive?
I'm just really worried about Chuck's mention of the green color of the AB's. I know for him it was on a Blueline ballast. Calciumbuf, if you are running the AB 10K's by themselves, assuming you are using an Icecap ballast, what does the color look like? The problem with the spectral data that Sanjay acquires is it's possible for the K ratings of two bulbs to be indentical, but the color of the bulb to our eyes to look different, depending upon which wavelengths are represented, and how our eyes perceive them. I'm going to have to get going and view some folks tanks. Unfortunately, as I recall, you are a LONG haul off from where I live.
Bulb.............................................PPFD (PAR)..color temp (K)...efficiency
Aqualine Buschke 250W 10000K DE 1.....101..... 9309............. 0.4122
Sun Aquatics 250W 10000K DE 1........99......... 5396............. 0.4737
XDE 250W 10000K DE 1....................121.........7541..............0.4783
HIT (BLV) 250W 10000K DE 1 ............81 ..........10014...........0.3320
Ushio 250W 10000K DE 1 .................78 ...........11521.......... 0.3145
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