Participate in the "ALL FISH HAVE ICH" fact or theory thread

[NateHanson]

I think it's generally around and in all stages of it's life cycle. Some on the fish, some on the rock, some in the water column. We don't see the visible sores that we associate with an outbreak because the fish are healthy, unstressed, and easily able to combat the little pests even though they are exposed to them. Same as you during flu season. You don't have the flu for 6 months straight every year, but you can bet that you are exposed to at least a small dose of viral particles throughout the season. But you don't feel the symptoms of infection (fever, achiness, congestion) because your healthy immune system is easily able to combat these small exposures.

Same with your fish. The ich organisms are always assaulting the fish, trying to establish a thriving infection. They don't monitor conditions and decide when to attach. They're not particularly clever. They just keep chewing, and occasionally they find a fish that's too weak, old, young, tired, stressed, diseased, etc to mount a proper immune response, so the ich are able to thrive on that fish, and increase in numbers. You see them, they have better odds of making other fish succumb because there is a higher load of happy, well fed, reproducing ich-things in the water, and the reefer is freaking out and probably making things worse.

That's the explanation that makes sense to my not-so-clever brain.

 

[Triggerfish]

I believe ICH is always present. I do not think there is a way to completely eradicte it.

doesn't seem like you're aware that the parasite is what's called "an obligate ectoparasite"(dickerson and clark,1996). which means it's an external parasite that requires a fish to feed from to complete its life cycle.
Basically in a nut shell: no fish no ich. it dies within 2 days once hatched if it can not feed. fallow tank = no ich or "ich free" however you want to term it.
fallow time varies based on water temp..cooler the water the longer it needs to fallow. reported that 8 weeks should be long enough at tropical temps.

You could QT a fish for months on end and keep a fallow tank for months on end, and if you introduce the fish in QT and it gets sick for some reason, that fish will get ich. just my thoughts

tank fallow for months = ich free
if the fish you put in from quarantine contracts ich in the tank that was fallowed, then the fish was not clean. quarantine process would need to be analyzed for issues.

 

[marco67]

I've just read through your other thread on Rc and it seems everyone there is telling you the same thing we are here, so now I'm confused as to why or what else there is to discuss /doccument?

 

[Triggerfish]

It is a parisite, it has a life cycle. How long can is last dormant? No one's
100% sure?????

all you can go by is what has been researched and documented.

"The longest recorded period of time for tomonts to hatch is 72 days (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). The life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is temperature dependent so it is highly unlikely for such an extended period to occur in a tropical aquarium."

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm

 

[Triggerfish]

I know that since I went hypo for 5 weeks in my main tank, I have not seen any, and ANY new critters get 4 weeks of QT.

whoa..that's interesting..if stress is a prerequisite for ich outbreaks,,then surely lowering the sg way down like that would be defined as stressful , wouldn't you think? and yet,you have not noticed any outbreaks..

that would go against the stress prerequiste theory regarding ich outbreaks.

 

[Triggerfish]

I think it would be more accurate to say "All Tanks Have Ich"
and all fish therefore have the potiential to get ich if stressed.

"stress (or weakened condition) is not a prerequisite to infection with Cryptocaryon irritans. Healthy fish that are not unduly stressed are susceptible to infection upon exposure to this pathogen"

 

[JohnK]

From what I've read, as backwards as this sounds - Hypo actually makes for a lower stress situation for the fish. This being based on something with the osmotic balance in the fish's body. I can't elaborate accurately off the top of my head, but what I'm referring to is somewhere in the RC disease treatment stickys.

 

[Triggerfish]

every last addition to your tank needs to be QT'd for 6-8 weeks without fish to break the cycle. Corals, live sand from other tanks, live rock, snails, hermit crabs, etc.

this is true for the most part. however, there may be instances where inverts would not carry in fish parasites that came from a system that had no fish. possible cross contamination from ich water could possibly have entered the fishless system.. softies being the least likely to contain ich cysts.. it was mentioned by mr. fenner that simply scrubing the shells of crabs and snails would work..however, i argued that method with him to no avail.

 

[Triggerfish]

I've just read through your other thread on Rc and it seems everyone there is telling you the same thing we are here, so now I'm confused as to why or what else there is to discuss /doccument?

you're confused..you can only imagine how confused i am after reading the above..
are you saying that ich needs to be introduced into the system for it to manifest itself? that once eradicated it cannot come back unless re-introduced. you sure you're reading the correct thread?
steven pro is stating that the parasite cannot be eradicated from a system?
and that the parasite can lay dormant for months and then just reappear when the temp drops.

the discussion is with folks that do not believe a system can be eradicated as well as those that have the understanding all fish will always have ich and waiting for the , how was it put, "Whether a fish gets Ich has to do with certain factors that cause the cells to transform into Ich and become active."
huh?

can you explain that one?

 

[NateHanson]

whoa..that's interesting..if stress is a prerequisite for ich outbreaks,,then surely lowering the sg way down like that would be defined as stressful , wouldn't you think? and yet,you have not noticed any outbreaks..

that would go against the stress prerequiste theory regarding ich outbreaks.

It doesn't at all argue against the theory that stress is NECESSARY for an outbreak. It only shows that stress is not SUFFICIENT to create an outbreak.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that Ich organisms materialize from air and water when a fish is stressed. They're simply saying that stress is a necessary factor, and that without a doubt, the presence of ich parasites in the system is another necessary factor.

I would certainly argue, however, that just as stress alone is not sufficient to create a visible outbreak, nor is presence of the parasite sufficient to create a visible outbreak. This is proven by the fact that a tank can have no visible white spots one week, and the next week (without any addition of fish, rock, livestock, etc) can have white spots on a couple fish (say because the temp spiked on a hot day). Clearly there were always some parasites in the tank, but in the first week the fish weren't suffering from a visible infection.

I guess I don't see two sides of the discussion. Everyone seems to agree that C.iritans is necessary for infection, and I think everyone can agree that it's not solely sufficient because so many fish live ich-free in tanks that certainly have at least a small number of ich parasites (as evidenced by sporadic or past outbreaks on an individual or small number of fish).

So the only discussion I can really see would be about whether quarantine can really in practice be thorough enough to prevent even a single parasite from entering the tank. I would tend to believe that it's certainly theoretically possible, but in practice it's an extremely slim shot. ("Communism works in THEORY, Marge." )

 

[marco67]

trigger,
you are wayyyyy over complicating this. Your theory that you can make a system is in theory correct. Can you keep the system Ich free? sure ...but it ain't going to happen! not without lab standard procedures and the most meticulous QT procedure, and there is just plain no one doing that, well ok maybe someone is but that person/ those people make up about 1/10th of 1% of reef keepers world wide.
That's it ...simple
The bottom line here is improve husbandry skills, reduce stress in the reef and your fish will be less likely to succumb.

 

[NateHanson]

the discussion is with folks that do not believe a system can be eradicated as well as those that have the understanding all fish will always have ich and waiting for the , how was it put, "Whether a fish gets Ich has to do with certain factors that cause the cells to transform into Ich and become active."
huh?

can you explain that one?

The whole Cancer analogy is just a misunderstanding by the scientifically challenged. C. Iritans doesn't transform out of Fish cells, any more than maggots grow out of meat. Cancer cells are human host cells gone bad. C. iritans cells are not fish host cells. They're another organism that must exist in the first place before it can cause an infection.

 

[smcnally]

Trigger, after reading this, I wonder why you asked the question in the first place. You seem to be dead set on your theory, so why ask others their opinion if you're just going to bash it? FWIW, your theory (and others like it) just don't fully make sense to me. I think what you may be confusing is ICH being present and alive in your tank and actual ICH outbreaks. ICH can be in your fish without you even knowing, since its life cycle starts in the Tomont Stage. While in this stage it lives within the mucus of the gills. From what I've read, while in this stage, the Trophonts can live in that state almost indefinitely. There is also no treatment for that stage of the life cycle. So, unless you get EXTREMELY lucky and somehow pull your fish out while there aren't any parasites in the Tomont stage, you will have a hell of a time getting rid of ICH 100%. The key is to keep your parameters good and your fish happy. If you do those two things, your quest to be ICH free will be completed.

 

[Matt L.]

Another tank that would not have ich is an invert only setup. Ich cannot survive without a fish host. For example, if I sstart with sand, LR, corals, critters, etc from an ich-infested tank, after 6-8 weeks, the tank will be ich-free, simply because there are no fish present.

Mark and Marco, herein: Mark(o), are both right. To have an ich-free tank is very difficult because you have to quarentine everything that comes into your tank from a living system, and you have to quarentine fish separately from everything else in a non-fish quanrentine setup. Very challenging.

Matt

 

[Matt L.]

Not to pick nits, but...

...If you do those two things, your quest to be ICH free will be completed.

I would say: "your quest to be Ich outbreak free"

Matt

 

[MarkO]

I believe it CAN be TOTALLY eradicated from your tank. Here's proof:
Start a new tank, add an ich free fish. Done!
Ich is a parasite, which is a more complex life form than a bacteria, or virus. And if ecosystems can be free of bactarium or viral strains, then I surely think they could be free of parasites.

 

[NateHanson]

Mark, do you believe it's possible in real-world terms though? Do you think that with all transactions in and out of a tank, that it will remain ich free?

I tend to think that people go to a lot of trouble to supposedly erradicate all ich in there tank, but then trade rock, corals, etc, and in my estimation probably reintroduce a very small number of ich parasites eventually. Then their healthy tank is just as well off as the average well-husbanded tank which never suffers ich outbreaks, despite the fact that both likely have a small population of c. iritans.

 

[MarkO]

ok, here's more proof:
I've had ich in my tank, and say I'd lose power and the temp would drop 10 deg. Sure enough, the ich would break out.
Then I finally got around to removing all fish from my tank, carnked up the tank temp to 85º, let it sit fish free for 5 weeks, treated the fish with hypo (and Cu for insuracne), replaced fish and no signs of ich for 2 years, including many power failures and one huge tank move. Never any signs of ich.
Then one day I was introducing a new fish. Had him in the quarantine for a week. He died. Stupid me, I threw the LR from the hospital tank into the reef sump. A few days go by, and you know what appears.
I surely can't catch all the fish in my new tank. Believe me, I tried. So now I deal with it. Every once in a while the tank temp drops too quick, and I have an outbreak.

 

[MarkO]

Good point Nate.
I think it's possible, but one would have to be very careful. I don't remember adding fish during those 2 years, but I may have. But I certainly added frags. So it is very possible that I could have re-introduced ich, should it have been present. I guess I must have been lucky.
I did end up with red bugs, but I treated my sole acro (at the time) in a bag, underwater, with Interceptor. Red bugs are not visible on any of my 4 or 5 acros now.

Edit:
In short, I believe it is possible to maintain an ich free tank, and not as difficult as it may seem. Especially if you treat all new fish and to be safe, new corals. I guess food could be a source, but highly unlikely.

I'm about 99% certain I WAS ich free for those 2 years. I say this because once it gets into your system, you usually notice an outbreak regardless of stress. During that time, I probably added about 10 frags... and possibly a fish or 2 and never experienced an outbreak. It wasn't until I added the LR back to the tank that I had a serious outbreak that took about 2 months to disappear on it's own.

 

[Valexia]

in the few months i have been maintaining fish only systems for a living there are a few things i have learned about parasites...well... ALOT i have learned about parasites.

Reef tanks are LITTERALLY FILLED with all sorts of critters, and bad ones with the good. Stress lowers their immunity to it... along with higher salinity.

We (others that maintenance the tanks i take care of) really don't like adding new fish, it really can wreck havok on a closed community of fish. Any outside additions (ie the client goes "shopping") cause some serious parasitic outbreaks. We stick with the same supplier, quarantine and keep the salinity down during introductions of new stock...no critters entering the fish.

I haven't seen ick on any (ANY) of the fish i take care of. no rock in these tanks, lots of serious water changes and careful food management to make sure organics stay low.

Its one of those things, the only fish i have seen in my own tanks come up with ick are any NEW additions...never the old farts that have lived in there for a long time. AND it doesn't last, strong fish that i have seen recover from it.

i think if you don't make a whole lot of tank additions its like not sleeping with a bunch of people, your not opening yourself up to any traveling critters or sicknesses..
make sense? its alot like sleeping around, use protection or dont do it lol!