-
******* To read about the changes to the marketplace click here
Passive Cal reactor
- Thread starter aaronf30
- Start date
naturebatslast
Senior Toad Licker
FWIW, I've heard pickling lime is a somewhat weaker concentration when compared to kalk powder. Bulkreefsupply sells almost a years worth (4.5#) for 12 bucks.
Made my kalk dripper out of 1 gallon bottle. Dripped 1 /second at 2 tbps/gallon concentration. I bought kalkwasser at skiptons pet center right before they closed (god i hate traffic) . Usually i wake up to find my PH has dropped from 8.2 to 7.7 today i woke up and it was at 7.99. Im sure my fish will appreciate that increase maybe ill get rid of that ick problem i've been having. Thanks for all your help. I plan on dripping that twice a week does that make sense?
Kalk is best dripped consistently on a daily basis. You don't want your Ca, alk, and PH all fluxuating all over the place every few days.
Also, if your setting a short term drip up, it's probably best done right around when the lights go off - that will minimize the day night PH swing.
Also, if your setting a short term drip up, it's probably best done right around when the lights go off - that will minimize the day night PH swing.
biggyclops
Senior Meatologist
either way its saturated...
i started using pickling lime yesterday in my topoff water... basically a small pump that pumps the clear saturated fluid to my sump.. i have a gate valve at the end of the hose so i can restrict the flow more so it is less of a shock in ph.. anyone ever use vinegar with the pickling lime? supposably it increases the saturation and the effects of the ph
i started using pickling lime yesterday in my topoff water... basically a small pump that pumps the clear saturated fluid to my sump.. i have a gate valve at the end of the hose so i can restrict the flow more so it is less of a shock in ph.. anyone ever use vinegar with the pickling lime? supposably it increases the saturation and the effects of the ph
marine mike
Getting back in! yes!
Actually the saturation point is pretty important like Joel said. If you overdo it, you get a film on top and an overly large amount of percipitate on the bottom of the container. You are also using Kalk that will never make it into your tank. The use of vinegar would increase the saturation amount because vinegar acts to neutralize the Kalk. Kalk is a heavy base, thus the ph of 12 or so in solution, the vinegar is an acid (3. something if memory serves) so they will neutralize each other until balanced and then the Kalk will continue to saturate, so you are not actually getting more into solution, just using more. None of this really matters when it comes to dripping it in your tank, but why use more than can be effective? Another tip: when your small gate valve or tubing get soaked and caked with Kalk paste, use vinegar to clean them. Come out spotless and ready to go again. 
FWIW, I've heard pickling lime is a somewhat weaker concentration when compared to kalk powder. Bulkreefsupply sells almost a years worth (4.5#) for 12 bucks.
Well, I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but different brands may have different bulk densities. That is, be a bit different in terms of its fluffiness. Mrs. Wages lime might be a bit more fluffy than some other brands. But the chemical itself is exactly the same, and the solution made from it will be exactly the same, assuming you add the same amount of weight.
Well, I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but different brands may have different bulk densities. That is, be a bit different in terms of its fluffiness. Mrs. Wages lime might be a bit more fluffy than some other brands. But the chemical itself is exactly the same, and the solution made from it will be exactly the same, assuming you add the same amount of weight.
so they will neutralize each other until balanced and then the Kalk will continue to saturate, so you are not actually getting more into solution, just using more.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Adding vinegar does make more solid lime dissolve and delivers more calcium and alkalinity to the tank. You can get about 1/3 more to the tank if you add 45 ml of vinegar per gallon of top off water.
That said, I do not recommend that folks go the vinegar route unless they are sure they need it. The acetate from the vinegar can drive bacterial growth and possibly reduce O2.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Adding vinegar does make more solid lime dissolve and delivers more calcium and alkalinity to the tank. You can get about 1/3 more to the tank if you add 45 ml of vinegar per gallon of top off water.
That said, I do not recommend that folks go the vinegar route unless they are sure they need it. The acetate from the vinegar can drive bacterial growth and possibly reduce O2.
Joel A
Started over.
Randy my thoughts on it were (and please correct me if i'm wrong, im not a chemist by any means) that the vinegar will make more of the kalk dissolve, but at the same time, that extra amount of dissolved kalk would simply settle out on the bottom of the container and on the top of the solution forming a film, really not making any difference in the bulk of the solution (because the solution was already at saturation point).
Is that not correct?
Can the kalk still add significant amounts of calcium and alkalinity levels if more kalk is dissolved past the original saturation point?
Sorry on the wording... i know that does kind of sound confusing.
The vinegar actually allows more calcium hydroxide to go into the clear solution that you can dose, more than ordinary saturated limewater. I discuss it here:
What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm
from it:
Vinegar And Limewater To Reduce pH
The reason that limewater raises the pH of aquarium water so considerably is because of the hydroxide that it adds. As described above, the hydroxide can combine with carbon dioxide to form bicarbonate and bring the pH back down. In many aquaria, however, the aeration is not great enough to bring in carbon dioxide fast enough to meet all this demand, and the pH rises. There are several ways to add additional carbon dioxide to meet this demand, including delivery from a carbon dioxide cylinder. Many aquarists, however, choose to add carbon dioxide in the form of vinegar. Many of them choose to add the vinegar directly to the limewater, although if pH reduction is the goal, it can also be added directly to a high flow area of the aquarium.
When vinegar is added directly to aquarium water, the active ingredient is acetic acid. The first thing it does is ionize into acetate and H+:
6. CH3COOH ---> CH3COO- + H+
Bacteria can then metabolize the acetate to gain energy in the reaction shown below:
7. CH3COO- + 2O2 ---> 2CO2 + H2O + OH-
On balance, the H+ released in (6) and the OH- released in (7) offset each other, and the net addition is simply carbon dioxide:
8. H+ + OH- ---> H2O
9. CH3COOH + 2O2 ---> 2CO2 + 2 H2O
One of the potential side effects of this metabolism is that the bacteria performing the transformation may grow faster because of it. This growth may have positive or negative outcomes. One potentially positive outcome is that as they grow, they will necessarily consume nitrogen and phosphorus, possibly lowering nitrate and phosphate levels in the aquarium. Another is that the bacteria may be a suitable food source for other organisms.
Potential drawbacks can include reduced oxygen as the bacteria use it to consume the acetate, and the appearance of unattractive bacterial mats in the aquarium (reported by some, but not by the majority of vinegar users).
Vinegar And Limewater To Boost Limewater Potency
Another potentially useful attribute of vinegar is that it can be used to help dissolve additional solid lime into limewater. It does this by reducing the hydroxide concentration in the limewater:
10. CH3OOH ---> CH3COO- + H+
The H+ combines with OH- in the limewater:
11. H+ + OH- ---> H2O
The actual dissolution of Ca(OH)2 is limited by the multiplication product of the calcium and hydroxide concentrations in the limewater as shown below:
12. Ca(OH)2 ---> Ca++ + 2OH-
13. [Ca++] x [OH-] x [OH-] <= 5.5 x 10-6
where [Ca++] is the concentration of calcium (in moles/L) and [OH-] is the concentration of hydroxide (in moles/L). Consequently, if you reduce the concentration of OH- via equations (10) and (11), then more Ca(OH)2 can dissolve into solution and still meet the equation (13) requirement.
This would seem like a concern, however, since losing OH- might reduce the amount of alkalinity delivered by the limewater. Luckily, this is not the case. While the OH- is temporarily reduced by the acetic acid in the vinegar, when bacteria metabolize the acetate, they release it back to the water:
14. CH3COO- + 2O2 ---> 2CO2 + H2O + OH-
Consequently, additional solid lime can be dissolved into limewater using vinegar.
How much can be used? The more vinegar that is used, the lower the pH of both the limewater and the aquarium will be. One reasonable point to shoot for is to add about the same amount of total CO2 via the vinegar as is needed by the lime to form HCO3-. This balance is roughly matched by using three level teaspoons of solid lime per gallon of limewater, and 45 ml of vinegar per gallon of limewater. For those aquarists choosing to use vinegar in limewater, these values are a suitable starting point. Note that the pH of the limewater is still quite high, so slow dosing is usually required.
What kind of vinegar should be used? Luckily, cheap distilled white vinegar is likely the best. More expensive flavored and colored vinegars, such as red wine vinegar, will deliver other unnecessary organic molecules to the aquarium, and are best avoided.
What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm
from it:
Vinegar And Limewater To Reduce pH
The reason that limewater raises the pH of aquarium water so considerably is because of the hydroxide that it adds. As described above, the hydroxide can combine with carbon dioxide to form bicarbonate and bring the pH back down. In many aquaria, however, the aeration is not great enough to bring in carbon dioxide fast enough to meet all this demand, and the pH rises. There are several ways to add additional carbon dioxide to meet this demand, including delivery from a carbon dioxide cylinder. Many aquarists, however, choose to add carbon dioxide in the form of vinegar. Many of them choose to add the vinegar directly to the limewater, although if pH reduction is the goal, it can also be added directly to a high flow area of the aquarium.
When vinegar is added directly to aquarium water, the active ingredient is acetic acid. The first thing it does is ionize into acetate and H+:
6. CH3COOH ---> CH3COO- + H+
Bacteria can then metabolize the acetate to gain energy in the reaction shown below:
7. CH3COO- + 2O2 ---> 2CO2 + H2O + OH-
On balance, the H+ released in (6) and the OH- released in (7) offset each other, and the net addition is simply carbon dioxide:
8. H+ + OH- ---> H2O
9. CH3COOH + 2O2 ---> 2CO2 + 2 H2O
One of the potential side effects of this metabolism is that the bacteria performing the transformation may grow faster because of it. This growth may have positive or negative outcomes. One potentially positive outcome is that as they grow, they will necessarily consume nitrogen and phosphorus, possibly lowering nitrate and phosphate levels in the aquarium. Another is that the bacteria may be a suitable food source for other organisms.
Potential drawbacks can include reduced oxygen as the bacteria use it to consume the acetate, and the appearance of unattractive bacterial mats in the aquarium (reported by some, but not by the majority of vinegar users).
Vinegar And Limewater To Boost Limewater Potency
Another potentially useful attribute of vinegar is that it can be used to help dissolve additional solid lime into limewater. It does this by reducing the hydroxide concentration in the limewater:
10. CH3OOH ---> CH3COO- + H+
The H+ combines with OH- in the limewater:
11. H+ + OH- ---> H2O
The actual dissolution of Ca(OH)2 is limited by the multiplication product of the calcium and hydroxide concentrations in the limewater as shown below:
12. Ca(OH)2 ---> Ca++ + 2OH-
13. [Ca++] x [OH-] x [OH-] <= 5.5 x 10-6
where [Ca++] is the concentration of calcium (in moles/L) and [OH-] is the concentration of hydroxide (in moles/L). Consequently, if you reduce the concentration of OH- via equations (10) and (11), then more Ca(OH)2 can dissolve into solution and still meet the equation (13) requirement.
This would seem like a concern, however, since losing OH- might reduce the amount of alkalinity delivered by the limewater. Luckily, this is not the case. While the OH- is temporarily reduced by the acetic acid in the vinegar, when bacteria metabolize the acetate, they release it back to the water:
14. CH3COO- + 2O2 ---> 2CO2 + H2O + OH-
Consequently, additional solid lime can be dissolved into limewater using vinegar.
How much can be used? The more vinegar that is used, the lower the pH of both the limewater and the aquarium will be. One reasonable point to shoot for is to add about the same amount of total CO2 via the vinegar as is needed by the lime to form HCO3-. This balance is roughly matched by using three level teaspoons of solid lime per gallon of limewater, and 45 ml of vinegar per gallon of limewater. For those aquarists choosing to use vinegar in limewater, these values are a suitable starting point. Note that the pH of the limewater is still quite high, so slow dosing is usually required.
What kind of vinegar should be used? Luckily, cheap distilled white vinegar is likely the best. More expensive flavored and colored vinegars, such as red wine vinegar, will deliver other unnecessary organic molecules to the aquarium, and are best avoided.
Randy,
We are fortunate to have you on the forum, thanks for your input.
Jim
We are fortunate to have you on the forum, thanks for your input.
Jim
marine mike
Getting back in! yes!
I stand corrected on the chemistry part of it because I believe 10th grade was the last course I took 
My point however I think was valid in that what we are attempting to achieve here is a ph correction in the tank or at least a consistent ph. Adding vinegar to the lime solution does not help to better raise the ph of the tank, rather it only allows addition of more lime to the solution, thus raising alk and calcium without raising ph.......
My point however I think was valid in that what we are attempting to achieve here is a ph correction in the tank or at least a consistent ph. Adding vinegar to the lime solution does not help to better raise the ph of the tank, rather it only allows addition of more lime to the solution, thus raising alk and calcium without raising ph.......
That is certainly true. If the goal is raising pH, adding vinegar to the limewater is not the best approach. 
Thanks, Jim.
Thanks, Jim.
marine mike
Getting back in! yes!
thanks Randy! I believe I got an A- in 10th grade chemistry, but did well enough to at least know the acid/base thing. Looking at your articles is like learning a new language but what you can manage to understand and apply is some of the most important information we can all have. In terms of chemistry I guess You are the Man.
I believe I got an A- in 10th grade chemistry, but did well enough to at least know the acid/base thing. Looking at your articles is like learning a new language but what you can manage to understand and apply is some of the most important information we can all have. In terms of chemistry I guess You are the Man. 
