randys 2 part caution from randy himself

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

To follow up on (and agree with) one of Greg's comments about how bad it is or is not, here's a repeat of a recent post of mine:

The level is seemingly high for routine use as a supplement, but it has not been proven too high. It is not too high for a once in a while boost to calcium.

A 100 ppm boost to calcium will boost bromide by about 1 ppm (about 2%). If that depletes as fast as the 100 ppm of calcium, then there is no problem. If not, then it may accumulate. I do not know how high it would need to accumulate to be a concern.

 

[Greg Hiller]

Randy, the PDF file from Dow for the Dowflake said 7,000 ppm Bromide by weight right? So that's about 0.7% by weight. But if you are adding the stuff for a 100 ppm boost in calcium, wouldn't it be more like almost a 4 ppm boost in bromide ion since the Dowflake is actually only 18.3% calcium by weight? Am I missing something here?

 

[Greg Hiller]

Oops, hold it, is Dowflake CaCl2.2H2O and not CaCl2.6H2O?, if so, then the Dowflake is 27% calcium by weight, which means a 100 ppm boost in Calcium would deliver a more like a 2.6 ppm boost in Br.

 

[Reef55]

maybe this is dumb question... but what happens to corals / fish / inverts / tank with elevated levels of bromine? Meaning, if I directly added bromine to my tank for some reason, what would be the effect?

 

[Greg Hiller]

>what happens to corals / fish / inverts / tank with elevated levels of bromine?<

No, not dumb, but not something I think we can answer easily. I can tell you that elevated Bromine Br2 would kill everything. But the element bromine as bromide Br- ion, which is how it occurs in seawater is certainly less of a problem, but could still be an issue.

IMO, any time we start to move away from NSW concentrations of any chemical component in our water we are in an unknown zone. So...it's always best to avoid if possible. Scientists (biologists anyhow) don't typically do experiments with marine animals at unusual concentrations of chemicals because it's usually not relevant in that the ocean is usually pretty uniform in composition. So, it's hard to scan the literature to find out what would happen with any one organism. Many might be fine, some, maybe not.

The problem with bromide though may be that if you are using ozone, you might form more nasty components when it reacts with the ozone.

 

[Yaktop]

The problem with bromide though may be that if you are using ozone, you might form more nasty components when it reacts with the ozone.

Greg, dont you use this 2 part and do you think when you started using ozone this may be this was your issue you were having? maybe I missed it but how do you test for bromine?

 

[stingythingy45]

I just read this in a book called:
Marine Reef Aquarium Handbook by Dr. Robert J. Goldstein

"Aquarist using ozonizers should avoid salt mixes containing excessive bromide,which reacts with ozone to form hypobromite ion(OBr-)that then oxidizes into bromate ion(BrO3-) at seawater PH(but not at PH 6.5).Bromate ion is a powerful oxidizer not unlike commercial bleach;it is stable in seawater for several hours and can accumulate to toxic levels."

Again no chemist....just passing on info.
Noticed that Greg touched on this.

 

[Aquaman_68]

Bromide can turn to hypo-bromide when ozone is administered @ too high a level......

That is even more toxic & also more unstable as well!!!!


The one question I ask here is this....

Why would one use a product when you have to worry about consistency? Seems pretty foolish in my opinion....What too save a couple bucks???

You know.....It seems that everyone using this two part etc etc is trying to raise levels in there tank that are in decline...I know the tank & corals use them up but.......Why wouldn't you use a synthetic salt closer to the levels your trying to maintain in your reef? Using anything else will put your tank in a chemical tailspin everytime you do a waterchange???


How can that be good I ask.....Oh wait a minute...You could always use the two part or mag flake to boost it up.......

Higher organics.....more water changes.........Are you feeling me?


Anyway....It doesn't make any sense.....to me....

IO is low on mag & ca & alk & it is all over the place with consistency....(but it's cheap) I guess that is why it's more popular...(as the two part & mag recipes are)


I use Tropic Marin....The levels are much higher than IO so I don't have to mess with home made suppliments...(which can & possibly cause a serious problem in my reef)

This is my opinion & I'm not telling you it is the only way.......


Lets think of this.......I'll use IO I'll suppliment with two part & mag flake.....Gee...I can't get my orp levels up above low 300mv's...I'll dose ozone to bring it up.....not going up.......I'll add more ozone......hmmmmm it's starting to drop more.....add more??? Hey...there a knock on the door....wait a minute.......Oh hi mr Hypo bromide....How are you????


I was dosing those additives & struggling with orp....I added ozone....then a little more & yet a little more.....Couldn't get it to raise......Knock the suppliment off & started using TM....Gradually my orp came back up...... (it took almost 6 months......Now it is hovering around 395- 410 & no ozone........ (that has been the story....for close to 3 plus years)


I'm not saying that ozone shouldn't be used continuously.....It should only be used in moderation.....Like for 3 days every three months or so....to blast those heavy organics that won't removed by the skimmer without being nuked....

In conclusion.....Please don't respond to my methods...You don't like them or trust me......Then ignore me.....

It really won't bother me.....What does bother me.....is the bash fest that takes place cause of what another reefer says.....

Randy, Steve & whoever.....I really don't care what you want to use or what you feel is ok.....I say fine...Knock yourself out.....I just feel that you may be sending a message out there that you really shouldn't.....& this is JMO...

Happy Reefing all!!!

 

[smcnally]

So what you're saying then is it is ok for you to bash other people's methods, but it isn't ok for us to question yours or defend others? First of all, I've never bashed your methods...I've only questioned you when you've bashed others. I've also kept quiet with the recent jabs you've taken at me. Maybe it's time you kept quiet...

 

[dz6t]

To follow up on (and agree with) one of Greg's comments about how bad it is or is not, here's a repeat of a recent post of mine:

The level is seemingly high for routine use as a supplement, but it has not been proven too high. It is not too high for a once in a while boost to calcium.

A 100 ppm boost to calcium will boost bromide by about 1 ppm (about 2%). If that depletes as fast as the 100 ppm of calcium, then there is no problem. If not, then it may accumulate. I do not know how high it would need to accumulate to be a concern.

Thanks for the calculation. 1ppm of bromide per 100 ppm calcium boost may very well harmless.

I am wondering if coral utilize bromide? I read somewhere that people actually dose bromide.

 

[Reef55]

>what happens to corals / fish / inverts / tank with elevated levels of bromine?<

No, not dumb, but not something I think we can answer easily. I can tell you that elevated Bromine Br2 would kill everything. But the element bromine as bromide Br- ion, which is how it occurs in seawater is certainly less of a problem, but could still be an issue.

So what form will the bromide / bromine in the calcium chloride from DOW be?

 

[Kevin McG]

So what you're saying then is it is ok for you to bash other people's methods, but it isn't ok for us to question yours or defend others? First of all, I've never bashed your methods...I've only questioned you when you've bashed others. I've also kept quiet with the recent jabs you've taken at me. Maybe it's time you kept quiet...

Oh no he didn't

 

[Bidadari]

What's the bromide level in TMPro?

 

[delta]

Friendly reminder

Just a friendly reminder to please keep these discussions productive and on track. We all have our ways and beliefs on reefkeeping and in this particular forum (Advanced Reef Topics) these ways and beliefs will be picked apart, questioned and\or deciphered.

It is all for furthering our understanding of reefkeeping and the hobby we love. Please try and be considerate of each other, after all we are all trying to get to the same place

 

[steevareno]

Would all this apply to Peladow as well?

 

[chew*]

peladow as well as dowflake are products of dead sea works, and peladow is just pelletized dowflake so i would say yes..........

Out of curiosity i wonder how much anyone is saving in the long run by using IO and getting the levels up over TM or TM pro......

 

[dz6t]

peladow as well as dowflake are products of dead sea works, and peladow is just pelletized dowflake so i would say yes..........

Out of curiosity i wonder how much anyone is saving in the long run by using IO and getting the levels up over TM or TM pro......

Dowflake and Peladow are products of Dow Chemicals.

Use ReefCrystal if you want higher Calcium level.

 

[chew*]

levels up..... not just CA, after all most salts are lower in MG than anything else.........

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're right, Greg, I did have a math error. The post should read:

Oops, I had a math mistake in the calculation above. I'm reposting data from above:

The level is seemingly high for routine use as a supplement, but it has not been proven too high. It is not too high for a once in a while boost to calcium.

A 100 ppm boost to calcium will boost bromide by about 4 ppm (about 6%). If that depletes as fast as the 100 ppm of calcium, then there is no problem. If not, then it may accumulate. I do not know how high it would need to accumulate to be a concern.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The interaction of bromide with ozone is well known and important to reefers using ozone. Most salt mixes contain bromide these days. I do not know of any that do not, but there may be some. I discuss it at great length here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php#7

and the toxicity of bromate here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php#16

It is an important reason to use activated carbon to treat ozone reactor effluent.

FWIW, however, it is not apparent that bromide makes the situation any worse than if it were not there. The other oxidants made from ozone are likely as toxic or more so.

The form of bromine in Dowflake will be bromide, as is in seawater.

That is even more toxic & also more unstable as well!!!!

Do you just like to toss out crap and hope it sticks, or do you have any idea of what you are talking about?

Ozone reacts with bromide to make bromate. Is bromate more toxic or unstable than ozone itself? No? I thought not. So without bromide is the tank better off?

[/B]In conclusion.....Please don't respond to my methods...You don't like them or trust me......Then ignore me.....[?B]

That sounds like the best option, since your uninformed comments and unfounded and blatantly incorrect attacks on my professionalism are beyond irritating.

Have you yet retracted you ridiculous comments about Dow warnings disappearing for unknown reasons?