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taking a break from LED
- Thread starter dz6t
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dannyp02908
Non-member
I get the graphs above, but the white LEDs we get are marked in color temperature. Do we have information on the spectrums of light these "warm white" and "cool white" leds are emitting?
Without getting into a huge debate, I understand that other bulbs, MH for example, are sold by the temperature rating as well. But these bulbs emit spectrums of light. the temperature is how it looks to us.
Without getting into a huge debate, I understand that other bulbs, MH for example, are sold by the temperature rating as well. But these bulbs emit spectrums of light. the temperature is how it looks to us.
dannyp02908
Non-member
Dong,
Maybe you could grab a cheap driver and 4-5 UV LEDS. Make a strip to supplement your current LEDs. Take a frag of coral that you wouldnt mind testing on and that you know had trouble under the LEDs (Acan maybe?) Try it with one UV, then 2 UV, etc and see if it does better.
Maybe you could grab a cheap driver and 4-5 UV LEDS. Make a strip to supplement your current LEDs. Take a frag of coral that you wouldnt mind testing on and that you know had trouble under the LEDs (Acan maybe?) Try it with one UV, then 2 UV, etc and see if it does better.
Exactly. The K temp tells very little about what's actually coming out of the Lamp / LED.
beelezebubba
Non-member
that's why i'm saying manufacturers and diyers should just try to replicate the uv levels as measured in that link. we know those are acceptable ranges because metal halides work. not sure how easy it might be to find equivalent numbers for uv leds.
OP
OP
I think different coral respond to LED differently. It doesn't seem to have problem with leather and zoas.
Also, one more finding I want to bring up:
I have two LED fixture, one by CADlight (better design and better quality, more $ when new) and one al-cheapo eBay led (stop calling it Chinese LED as all LED are made in China including Radion and AI, I think Pacific Sun also made in China and correct me if I am wrong). All the bad thing happed under the eBay al-cheapo LED. The CADlight LED actually never kill anything, yet.
Also, one more finding I want to bring up:
I have two LED fixture, one by CADlight (better design and better quality, more $ when new) and one al-cheapo eBay led (stop calling it Chinese LED as all LED are made in China including Radion and AI, I think Pacific Sun also made in China and correct me if I am wrong). All the bad thing happed under the eBay al-cheapo LED. The CADlight LED actually never kill anything, yet.
.
The River Reef
Non-member
From the research I have done... the UV is what causes those nice colors we like in some corals. They build a barrier from the UV light, much like we put on sunscreen in the summer. I am not sure what growth effects UV plays...
inverted
Non-member
No, UV is a poison and kills corals... There is lots of scientific research on this. When hobbyist talk about UV, they are talking in terms of around 400 nm, which just barely falls into the UV range. It is semantic, but important. If you removed the UV shield from your DE HQI metal halide, your corals will die. Really 400 is the line for "UV" coral pigments, that are produced to protect against true UV are clear. Bright coral pigments are produced to protect against high energy near uv light, mostly from about 400 to 500 nm. One problem that LEDs have had, is that they do not produce much light near UV. They really cutoff at about 440nm. However, saying that they are not full spectrum, compared to halides, is just absolutely ludicrous and completely ignores the data. For the most part, "white" LEDs cover a much wider spectrum than halides, albeit without the near UV range. Maybe that is important, although, I have experimented with LEDs a lot and for the most part, they do fine once you careful acclimate corals to them. This seems to be due to changes in light spectrum though and also happens if I change from one halide to another for example.
I agree too that people over-estimate what LEDs are capable of. A lot of times people see belching and think it is from too much light, however, my experience has been that this isn't the case, it is from lack of proper acclimation. As to spectrum and PAR, here I looked at output of LEDs versus halides and compared PAR estimates. Estimates for PAR reading error, was obtained by applying Apogee's published response curve to published LED and halide output curves.
http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums...ion-examined-Lighting-Spectrum-and-HEV-thread
inverted
Non-member
PAR at 10 feet would also get up to about 1500, do we want that?
This article has a lot of info on PAR and light spectrum.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/5/aafeature
inverted
Non-member
The Captive aquatics blog you list here was a big embarrassment to Orphek. It was put out by a wannabe Orphek vendor, who many think was trying to undermine ecotech. Orphek issued a statement distancing themselves from it here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/orphek-issues-statement-regarding-mike-maddox-et-al
There was a lot written about this on the forums, however, Orphek is a sponsor of many and many such as the RC mods deleted any thread having anything to do with this topic.
There
I don't argue that for a second, I think this is a symptom of many first time users. I bleached mine from poor light acclimation at first, dialed it back down and got the color back.
After the initial burn recovered, over a 6 month period I eased them back up 5% at a time from 50% to 80% during peak time.
FYI - I have had AI's for going on 3 years now on a mixed reef. 18" from water surface, first SPS is approx 6" below the surface, LPS and softies on the sand or out of direct light up to 20" down.
After easing them up, I left the setting at 80% for 5 hours during peak periods (total 10 hour cycle). Here is stayed for about 1.5-2 years. Never touched it.
Over time I noticed a steady color loss. Blue tenius turned white with sky blue tips. Pink Tip Sarmentosa turned white with barely noticeable color change at tips. Bleached out Caps, Teal/blue Stag turned Sky blue etc. Pink Pocilipora was barely pink, millis bleached out, even my orange plate on the sand bed looked translucent. Not only color, but poly extension was minimal. I tested for everything, had other people test etc convinced it was a chemical related issue over time. Light never occurred to me.
4 months ago I dialed the light back to an 8 hour cycle, 5 at peak, and peak is now 60%. My color is returning, PE is good, and tank looks better than ever.
In this case, given I was working with 1.5-2 yrs of time at a particular setting with what I would consider to be a long 6 month ramp up from 50-80% I think the issue was purely too much light bleaching the corals.
twiddledog
Non-member
I just joined this thread and there is a lot of talk about missing spectrum with LEDs. Also, we all agree that MH\T5 combo is proven and works as far as spectrum goes. To add to that we know that T5s alone work as well.
So...how come more people don;t mix LEDs with T5 supplementation? I am no expert at all but it seems to me that using LEDs and T5 bulbs together makes the most sense to get the best spectrum. (although not sure which T5 bulbs would work the best as far as color spectrum goes)
I plan on using Vega colors with my current T5 fixtures that are already part of my system. Maybe just using he T5s during peak hours of the day makes sense. We know that T5s supply everything that is needed as far spectrum goes so why not use them???
So...how come more people don;t mix LEDs with T5 supplementation? I am no expert at all but it seems to me that using LEDs and T5 bulbs together makes the most sense to get the best spectrum. (although not sure which T5 bulbs would work the best as far as color spectrum goes)
I plan on using Vega colors with my current T5 fixtures that are already part of my system. Maybe just using he T5s during peak hours of the day makes sense. We know that T5s supply everything that is needed as far spectrum goes so why not use them???
dannyp02908
Non-member
I actually think alot of people are supplementing LED with T5 now.
inverted
Non-member
Ruge13, for sure! I'm not at all saying you can't have too much light with LEDs, but some people switch to LEDs and think they can run small fractions of the PAR they had with halides and get good results. I mean, I have to say in these cases, c'mon, give me a break. Anyone who understands basic biology and photosynthesis presumably realizes how ridiculous that sounds; there has to be some other things going on. And if you understand coral/symboint biology, you understand that "too much" light is only one of many reasons corals can bleach.
Really, if we look at the facts, there are some other things going on. Over all visible light output, weighted evenly, we know halides ARE still more efficient than LEDs. However, they do not produce blue light well and if we look over certain narrow band of blue, within that range, LEDs actually become more efficient. At the same time, we know the symbiotic dinoflagellates (zooxanthellae) are golden-brown and this is because this color is the best at absorbing the blue light it uses for photosynthesis. Also, we know, zooxanthellae can be detrimental to corals, if it works too efficiently, produces too much oxygen and grows too quickly. So, corals also produce pigments to limit the light available to their zooxanthellae. We know a lot of things about nutrients and metals and flow etc.. and have a good idea how all these variables work together to determine how tolerant corals are of light. We also have an understanding of how these differ in our tanks versus the ocean and can guess why our corals are under more stress in our systems versus in the ocean.
We also know halide reflectors don't focus light too well, and a lot is wasted, compared to what is possible with LEDs.
So, we know, in many cases we can get away with less using lower wattage LEDs, compared to other sources of light. However, LEDs aren't magical and corals still need a good amount of light.
Using "halides" as a general term and comparing to "LEDs" as a general term, is sort of ridiculous. In the PAR meter thread I posted, from the graphs, we can clearly see that there is often very little similarity between "halides" and other "halides" and the same goes for "LEDs" versus "halides" or "LEDs" versus "LEDs" even.
What I can say, is that you pick an LED fixture, that matches the spectral output of a halide fixture you have been using, then there should be little need for acclimation and you should be able to run similar PAR numbers. On the other hand, if it doesn't, then you are in for a lot of trial and error.
You can run lots of PAR with LEDs though, heck, my "new" fixture, in my fluval edge (well almost a year old, but second diy fixture on the Edge) is blasting my ricodia and zooanthid and even mushroom corals with over 400 PAR and they seem to love it. But the fixture was designed to mimic the Phoenix 14000K fixture they were under before in another one of my tanks.
Really, if we look at the facts, there are some other things going on. Over all visible light output, weighted evenly, we know halides ARE still more efficient than LEDs. However, they do not produce blue light well and if we look over certain narrow band of blue, within that range, LEDs actually become more efficient. At the same time, we know the symbiotic dinoflagellates (zooxanthellae) are golden-brown and this is because this color is the best at absorbing the blue light it uses for photosynthesis. Also, we know, zooxanthellae can be detrimental to corals, if it works too efficiently, produces too much oxygen and grows too quickly. So, corals also produce pigments to limit the light available to their zooxanthellae. We know a lot of things about nutrients and metals and flow etc.. and have a good idea how all these variables work together to determine how tolerant corals are of light. We also have an understanding of how these differ in our tanks versus the ocean and can guess why our corals are under more stress in our systems versus in the ocean.
We also know halide reflectors don't focus light too well, and a lot is wasted, compared to what is possible with LEDs.
So, we know, in many cases we can get away with less using lower wattage LEDs, compared to other sources of light. However, LEDs aren't magical and corals still need a good amount of light.
Using "halides" as a general term and comparing to "LEDs" as a general term, is sort of ridiculous. In the PAR meter thread I posted, from the graphs, we can clearly see that there is often very little similarity between "halides" and other "halides" and the same goes for "LEDs" versus "halides" or "LEDs" versus "LEDs" even.
What I can say, is that you pick an LED fixture, that matches the spectral output of a halide fixture you have been using, then there should be little need for acclimation and you should be able to run similar PAR numbers. On the other hand, if it doesn't, then you are in for a lot of trial and error.
You can run lots of PAR with LEDs though, heck, my "new" fixture, in my fluval edge (well almost a year old, but second diy fixture on the Edge) is blasting my ricodia and zooanthid and even mushroom corals with over 400 PAR and they seem to love it. But the fixture was designed to mimic the Phoenix 14000K fixture they were under before in another one of my tanks.
inverted
Non-member
As to mixing T-5s and LEDs, yeah, I too have seen a lot of people doing this. One comment though, is you say T-5s are "proven". However, if you say "T-5s" are "proven" you'd also need to say, certain combinations of T-5s are "proven" not to work so well. If you wanted to run all actinit T-5s for example, lots of people would jump in and say that isn't such a good idea. However, a lot of people like the blue look of LEDs and either run really blue LEDs, or dim the whites, to the point where they are almost running the "LED equivalent" of an all 450nm actinic T-5 setup. Further, "white" LEDs use the same phosphors and many white T-5s, so, they actually put out basically the same output as white T-5s. Unfortunately, people still seem to be memorized by the fluorescent colors under blue LEDs and often don't run much of the whites. And if they do run whites, often they seem to run "cool white" LEDs, which are still almost entirely blue. Adding some neutral or warm white LEDs, almost makes adding T-5s unnecessary, as they produce pretty much the same output. The exception may be "near uv blue, i.e. 420nm actinic T-5s, although, this range is starting to become available in LEDs too.
Light is light, if you produce the same light output, it doesn't matter what the source is, it's the same....
twiddledog
Non-member
I meant T5s have been ariound for a long time and they are proven to work..when used correctly. Generally speaking.
inverted
Non-member
Yeah, definitely. I would say, at this point LEDs are "proven" too though. They have been out for many years now and many people have great success with them. However, they aren't as "plug and play" as T-5s. There are a lot more possible configurations and therefore a lot more opportunity to drive people mad LOL. So, not for everyone for sure. I still have a halide on my 93g and have no plans to replace it, but also have been running LEDs on other tanks for a few years and am perfectly happy with the results, but certainly after using halides and T-5s for over a decade, it took some time to understand LEDs...
twiddledog
Non-member
I just think..although have not actually done it yet, is that LEDs and T5s may make a great combo and could also keep the costs down from purchasing very expensive LED modules.
I posed the question to ATI regardng which bulbs would be good supplementation with LEds for some UV and just received some from feedback from them. ....
Our True Actinic has the most UV spectrum of any of our bulbs, but all of
our bulbs have a little bit of UV in them and you do not need much UV
spectrum to make your corals happy so a combination of any of our bulbs
should work. I would think a combination of 2x Blue Plus, 1x True Actinic
and 1x Coral Plus should work good, but even your current combination of 2x
Blue Plus, 1x Purple Plus and 1x Coral Plus should be fine.
I posed the question to ATI regardng which bulbs would be good supplementation with LEds for some UV and just received some from feedback from them. ....
Our True Actinic has the most UV spectrum of any of our bulbs, but all of
our bulbs have a little bit of UV in them and you do not need much UV
spectrum to make your corals happy so a combination of any of our bulbs
should work. I would think a combination of 2x Blue Plus, 1x True Actinic
and 1x Coral Plus should work good, but even your current combination of 2x
Blue Plus, 1x Purple Plus and 1x Coral Plus should be fine.
newenglandreef
Non-member
I don't think it's as much UV as it is some peak in the 420 nm spectrum, that's what many generally believe to be true. If you look at the peak for most LED units--including the higher end ones, they peak at around 430-450nm. It's believed that the best spectrum for coral is in the 420nm wavelength. Actinics generally peak in the 420nm, so if you supp your LED's with T5 actinics, that should be the best combo based on present belief.
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