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Too Much Skimming?
- Thread starter diverbh4
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SharkLover
T5 LPS
very interesting info everyone.
and lets try and keep this a friendly and loving thread
I went to NU a long long time ago. hehe... graduating class of 04. Nice too meet you.
OP
OP
diverbh4
Swimmin With The Fishies
I went to NU a long long time ago. hehe... graduating class of 04. Nice too meet you.
What did you study? Im out in '11 for Int'l Business
SharkLover
T5 LPS
School of engineering technology. Bachelors in computer engineering. Currently working out of waltham. Our Clients included and are not limited too; Welchs (the grape company) , bob's furniture, and many many more. Most likely if you've driven in mass you've seen one of our clients. We deal with with banks.... from CT all the way up to NH. boston private bank, banknewport, cambridge savings bank, boston mutual.(all well known business') I work for a network systems management company. Some of the environments we manage and provide help desk support for are well known to alot of people.
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Joel A
Started over.
Say what? Save your money? Really?
Sure you can run an algae infested softy "reef" tank with a few fish and liverock with out a skimmer... but to say "many people run successful reef tanks without a skimmer" ... well that might just be the stretch of the century.
How exactly can you "prove" your skimmer is better than another? Just curious... and some skimmers are clearly better than others...
they are NOT all over rated...
Skimmer/Lighting are the 2 most important parts of a reef tank... how well your skimmer and lighting system preform set the base for how well your reef will go...
SharkLover
T5 LPS
Joel A
Started over.
While I do believe that skimming could possibly take out some beneficial things it is such a small unnoticeable amount compared to the benefits a skimmer provides...
We've had row ins about this in the past Kev but the benefits of skimming a tank are far more than not using a skimmer. I will say that a small nano could def get away without a skimmer. Also you could do more water changes and get away without a skimmer but again a tank just looks better with a skimmer... Also there are skimmers that are better than others and IMO consumer reviews show this...
There are a lot of so called science you find online may turn out to be wishful thinking or basement science.
I hope you are truely enjoy reefing as a hobby.
I wish you do some fact checking before you post some statements like "PC lights" or "algae infested sofety" etc.
There's plenty of nice skimmerless tanks, so it's not really "the stretch of the century"...http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1634553&highlight=skimmerless+tanks
The article I posted "proves" that the 4 skimmers tested performed pretty much the same, regardless of cost or consumer hype, er, I mean reviews. To prove "x" skimmer is better than "y" skimmer would be pretty simple, just set up identical systems and stock/feed them the same and perform water quality tests. So why don't the manuf. do these simple tests? It's much easier to take pictures of bubbles and hype all kinds of other features, and they might just prove that the only difference is price....
The article I posted "proves" that the 4 skimmers tested performed pretty much the same, regardless of cost or consumer hype, er, I mean reviews. To prove "x" skimmer is better than "y" skimmer would be pretty simple, just set up identical systems and stock/feed them the same and perform water quality tests. So why don't the manuf. do these simple tests? It's much easier to take pictures of bubbles and hype all kinds of other features, and they might just prove that the only difference is price....
Here's some more science....http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2/
Probably the reason why the manuf. don't perform such tests...
"In addition, the surprisingly minimal impact of protein skimming on TOC levels was revealed. On this point, it is apparent that if TOC levels can be monitored to assay the effects of one skimmer (the H&S A200 in this case), then they can be monitored to measure the impact of different types of skimmers operating on an experimental tank. In addition, these types of experiments also can be used to probe more directly and quantitatively the TOC removal capabilities of Granular Activated Carbon (GAC) that was
hinted at in the tank #2 vs. tank #3 comparison. These types of experiments might allow, for the first time, a quantitative evaluation of skimmer and, independently, GAC performance which is divorced from the hype and misinformation that seems to surround these areas of marine aquarium maintenance/equipment. These experiments are ongoing and results will be reported in due course."
"
Probably the reason why the manuf. don't perform such tests...
"In addition, the surprisingly minimal impact of protein skimming on TOC levels was revealed. On this point, it is apparent that if TOC levels can be monitored to assay the effects of one skimmer (the H&S A200 in this case), then they can be monitored to measure the impact of different types of skimmers operating on an experimental tank. In addition, these types of experiments also can be used to probe more directly and quantitatively the TOC removal capabilities of Granular Activated Carbon (GAC) that was
hinted at in the tank #2 vs. tank #3 comparison. These types of experiments might allow, for the first time, a quantitative evaluation of skimmer and, independently, GAC performance which is divorced from the hype and misinformation that seems to surround these areas of marine aquarium maintenance/equipment. These experiments are ongoing and results will be reported in due course."
"
SeaMonkey
Anemone Cricket
Some pretty passionate views about skimmers here
I want to pipe in that price is not always indicative of out-of-the-box performance, but sometimes the materials used. Those cheap materials can cause performance to eventually degrade and/or the entire setup to fail prematurely.
Manufacturers pass on their prices, and so when something costs more, it's usually for a reason.
To the original question of whether or not you can over-skim your tank - I think it will take more research to come to a conclusive answer. You should be safe (judging from other's results so far) to run a skimmer rated for a higher tank. I would humbly recommend keeping a diary of not only your tank readings, but also of how your coral and fish seem to be doing. That way you can make your own decision based on how it performs for you.
I want to pipe in that price is not always indicative of out-of-the-box performance, but sometimes the materials used. Those cheap materials can cause performance to eventually degrade and/or the entire setup to fail prematurely.
Manufacturers pass on their prices, and so when something costs more, it's usually for a reason.
To the original question of whether or not you can over-skim your tank - I think it will take more research to come to a conclusive answer. You should be safe (judging from other's results so far) to run a skimmer rated for a higher tank. I would humbly recommend keeping a diary of not only your tank readings, but also of how your coral and fish seem to be doing. That way you can make your own decision based on how it performs for you.
Sherri
Non-member
Having just started with one new cheap skimmer and then moving to a second more expensive one, I think you skim if you want to feed your tank a lot. Also, more expensive skimmers can be more reliable and stable. Of course -- cheaper skimmers can also be reliable. You know, every system is so different that I think you have to see what works for you. Some people have failed miserably going skimmerless others have elaborate systems to go skimmerless and it works. I bought a serious skimmer rated for up to 500 gallons on a 300 gallon system, I run charcoal and GFO, have a RDSB, and I have a macroalgae sump. My water is nice and clear, I have some algae issues but the tank is new, and I have tons of pods. I like to feed my tank a lot which is why I have all of this -- the corals just look happier when they get regular food. So in my view of the world of reefing, if you are going to feed a lot then set it up so that you have several different ways to remove nutrients -- and that can mean skimmer intensive or skimmerless -- whatever religion you choose.
Joel A
Started over.
Ok... let's see here. Nitrogen is in NSW.. well that's a fact... that's not wishful "basement thinking". Power compact lights? What are you talking about?? How are power compact lights "wishful basement thinking".
Algae infested softy tank.. well let's see here what are like 95% of the skimmer-less tanks run? Oh yeah.. softy tanks with algae problems. Do you think before you post?
Joel A
Started over.
Ok, so you go run a seaclone on your tank and i'll go run a Bubble King SM 300 and our tanks should look the same right... i mean the bubble king is just hype right? Surely a Seaclone preforms just as well. I'll even be nice.. here you can have a corallife super skimmer... it's got the word "super" in it... that way your skimmer is just as hyped as mine...
You want a manufacturer to set up there own tanks... and test the competitions skimmers in them? Well first of all they'd need the competitions approval.. 2nd off.. that's not exactly something that can be done in a few days... that would take for ever. Third- they do have solid information to back up whether or not the skimmer is more efficient.. what do you think all the air to water ratio's posted for the pumps are? There is a direct correlation to skimmer efficient and air to water ratio's achieved by the needle wheel pumps. The manufacturers don't NEED to preform tests to sell there product, so why would they? We as hobbyists preform the tests and pass along which skimmers are better... so why do they need to do the same thing?
I did the cheapo skimmer and then upgraded to a decent skimmer and it was a huge difference in the gunk being pulled out. I upgraded to the larger skimmer because I feed the hell out of my tank. 3-4 cubes every 1-2 days and w/o a skimmer I'd prob have to do water changes daily and that's not going to happen
Great point... A cheapo skimmer could work great on one person's tank and not so great on another...
Quote from Joel A,
"You want a manufacturer to set up there own tanks... and test the competitions skimmers in them? Well first of all they'd need the competitions approval.."
Why? Its done every day in industry and results published?
Jim
"You want a manufacturer to set up there own tanks... and test the competitions skimmers in them? Well first of all they'd need the competitions approval.."
Why? Its done every day in industry and results published?
Jim
Ok, so you go run a seaclone on your tank and i'll go run a Bubble King SM 300 and our tanks should look the same right..."
I could go into my basement and get my old Seaclone and hook it up, but I'd doubt it would make my tank look any better. Right now my SPS tank is basically running skimmerless...
" i mean the bubble king is just hype right? Surely a Seaclone preforms just as well. I'll even be nice.. here you can have a corallife super skimmer... it's got the word "super" in it... that way your skimmer is just as hyped as mine..."
I'm not familiar with the bubbleking, but if it costs more than $200, it probably is 90% hype if it's rated for a 100g tank
"You want a manufacturer to set up there own tanks... and test the competitions skimmers in them? Well first of all they'd need the competitions approval.. 2nd off.. that's not exactly something that can be done in a few days... that would take for ever. Third- they do have solid information to back up whether or not the skimmer is more efficient.. what do you think all the air to water ratio's posted for the pumps are? There is a direct correlation to skimmer efficient and air to water ratio's achieved by the needle wheel pumps. The manufacturers don't NEED to preform tests to sell there product, so why would they? We as hobbyists preform the tests and pass along which skimmers are better... so why do they need to do the same thing?"[/QUOTE]
Why would they need the competitions approval? They could simply hire an independant company to run the tests. Did you read the last 2 articles I posted? These were tests run by scientists with PHD"s, not hobbyists who base their opinions on bubble production. The air to water ratio is meaningless without testing to see what exactly the bubbles contain. The manufacturers don't WANT to test their skimmers as they might get the same results as the scientists who performed the tests in the articles I posted. You need to back up your claims with at least some sort of science, and there doesn't seem to be any available to back up the "hobbyists" claims. Now, I'm the type of guy who puts his money where his mouth is so to speak. If you want you can come over my house (I'm in Hanson, MA) and check out my "algae infested softie tank" which is about 90% SPS which I think have pretty good growth and colors, I'll give you a couple of frags of your choosing within reason (some are new 1" sticks). I'll make a similiar frag of the same coral and we can see if your high tech tank can compete with my KISS approach. If anything, it shoud be interesting....
I could go into my basement and get my old Seaclone and hook it up, but I'd doubt it would make my tank look any better. Right now my SPS tank is basically running skimmerless...
" i mean the bubble king is just hype right? Surely a Seaclone preforms just as well. I'll even be nice.. here you can have a corallife super skimmer... it's got the word "super" in it... that way your skimmer is just as hyped as mine..."
I'm not familiar with the bubbleking, but if it costs more than $200, it probably is 90% hype if it's rated for a 100g tank
"You want a manufacturer to set up there own tanks... and test the competitions skimmers in them? Well first of all they'd need the competitions approval.. 2nd off.. that's not exactly something that can be done in a few days... that would take for ever. Third- they do have solid information to back up whether or not the skimmer is more efficient.. what do you think all the air to water ratio's posted for the pumps are? There is a direct correlation to skimmer efficient and air to water ratio's achieved by the needle wheel pumps. The manufacturers don't NEED to preform tests to sell there product, so why would they? We as hobbyists preform the tests and pass along which skimmers are better... so why do they need to do the same thing?"[/QUOTE]
Why would they need the competitions approval? They could simply hire an independant company to run the tests. Did you read the last 2 articles I posted? These were tests run by scientists with PHD"s, not hobbyists who base their opinions on bubble production. The air to water ratio is meaningless without testing to see what exactly the bubbles contain. The manufacturers don't WANT to test their skimmers as they might get the same results as the scientists who performed the tests in the articles I posted. You need to back up your claims with at least some sort of science, and there doesn't seem to be any available to back up the "hobbyists" claims. Now, I'm the type of guy who puts his money where his mouth is so to speak. If you want you can come over my house (I'm in Hanson, MA) and check out my "algae infested softie tank" which is about 90% SPS which I think have pretty good growth and colors, I'll give you a couple of frags of your choosing within reason (some are new 1" sticks). I'll make a similiar frag of the same coral and we can see if your high tech tank can compete with my KISS approach. If anything, it shoud be interesting....
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Quote from KSC,
"Why would they need the competitions approval? They could simply hire an independant company to run the tests."
This is sometimes done by a independent company, but by no means a requirement, as with anything else published you must be able to back up your findings. I often evaluated products from our competition and used findings in our advertisements.
Jim
"Why would they need the competitions approval? They could simply hire an independant company to run the tests."
This is sometimes done by a independent company, but by no means a requirement, as with anything else published you must be able to back up your findings. I often evaluated products from our competition and used findings in our advertisements.
Jim
Liam
letting it grow
really,i find pods in my skimmer all the time.
Bacteria are definitely removed via skimming, also if you are removing water via a skimmer you are also removing bacteria,minerals,trace elements etc its impossible not to.
