120 Gal reef tank. 300 lbs rock. 5" of sand. I want to empty the tank remove and clean the rock, remove and discard the sand and replace it with new sand, Mix and fill with new water after cleaning all the walls ect. Can anybody here walk me through the proceedure and what the downfalls are to the fish when doing this. I do have an empty 48" tank I can fill and use as a holding tank for the fish? I think this is going to be the only way to rid my tank of the hair algae. Tank has run for 7 years with no issues and now I have this hair algae issue that seems to be from the old sand and sediment in the live rock. Is it time to just bite the bullet and do a total reset???
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Total tank reset
- Thread starter 1stmardiv
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Sounds pretty much like what hapens when moving to a different tank.
First thing to do is make sure you have lots of salt water all ready to go,mixed and heated.
When I made the move to a larger tank I used a 100 gallon live stock tank to put the rock,coral and even the fish in.Just dropped a heater in there and a couple powerheads.
Used the tank water to fill it up.
In your case having the tank to house the fish for a while is a big plus.This will definitely help you out when cleaning the LR.And the fish will have a place to hang out for a while so you can check to see if any nasties arise in the DT after the sand swap and rock cleaning.
Hopefully you wont have any large corals to deal with.
First thing to do is make sure you have lots of salt water all ready to go,mixed and heated.
When I made the move to a larger tank I used a 100 gallon live stock tank to put the rock,coral and even the fish in.Just dropped a heater in there and a couple powerheads.
Used the tank water to fill it up.
In your case having the tank to house the fish for a while is a big plus.This will definitely help you out when cleaning the LR.And the fish will have a place to hang out for a while so you can check to see if any nasties arise in the DT after the sand swap and rock cleaning.
Hopefully you wont have any large corals to deal with.
My only advice would be to test the water frequently after all this work to make sure you don't have a mini re-cycle from stirring up everything and have saltwater premade to do a quick water change if you get a spike in ammonia and nitrites...
I have taken out all the rockwork in a tank (parent's tank) and scrubbed it but I haven't replaced the sand at the same time... Nothing really ever happened when I scrubbed all the rockwork...
I have taken out all the rockwork in a tank (parent's tank) and scrubbed it but I haven't replaced the sand at the same time... Nothing really ever happened when I scrubbed all the rockwork...
Just at the local fish store. Man there said if I have a 5" sand bed, it is old school and not recommended. He said that is where the phosphates are coming from to feed the hair algae? He recommends a sand bed of only about 1.5 to 2". He recommended I scoop off the top 1" of sand in my exesting tank and save it to mix in with the new sand bed as it will have the good bacteria to get the new tank reset going? He said once I desturb the sand deep down, I will be releasing a very toxic mix into the water, so I need to get the livestock into another tank first. He said to take out the live rock with the alhae on it and place it into a trash can with water and 10% bleach and let it sit for several days before rinsing it really good and letting it air dry. Once the main tank is reset, I can start introducing the cleaned rock a little at a time.
I'm fine with everything but this.
"He said to take out the live rock with the alhae on it and place it into a trash can with water and 10% bleach and let it sit for several days before rinsing it really good and letting it air dry. Once the main tank is reset, I can start introducing the cleaned rock a little at a time."
So he wants you to kill your live rock?Why?
Better be prepared to wait a very long time before reintrocucing the fish into the DT tank.
"He said to take out the live rock with the alhae on it and place it into a trash can with water and 10% bleach and let it sit for several days before rinsing it really good and letting it air dry. Once the main tank is reset, I can start introducing the cleaned rock a little at a time."
So he wants you to kill your live rock?Why?
Better be prepared to wait a very long time before reintrocucing the fish into the DT tank.
Stingy
What would you do with a couple hundred pounds of live rock which has hair algae growing all over it. Some does and some does not. Should I take the pieces with no algae and place them in the holding tank with the fish? I take it you are talking about getting the biological cycle going real quick?? Should I put half the live rock in the holding tank and the other half in the 55 gallon sump tank I have now?
Already put one in a month ago and nothing has changed
kevinpratt823
Non-member
I'm all for DSB in a fug, but IMO a DT is better off long and short term with a shallow bed that can't trap as much organics. The bacteria that eats nitrates requires low oxygen to colonize/grow, which means below the 2-3" mark of a sandbed, and also in the core of well established live rock. Personally, I would use the top layer of your sand, rinsed clean in tank water and set aside, empty the tank and get rid of the rest of the sand(or rinse it and save it for a fuge or whatever). Scrub the rock in a tub. Put the sand in the tank and fill it back up(I would use 70% fresh mixed SW), and put in some of the cleaner pieces of rock to get it started, and keep testing for things to stabilize. The remainder of the rock would go into a tub with fresh saltwater circulating and put in darkness, doing a few doses of API Marine Algaefix(I've used it in my reef), over the next week, then maybe even another scrub. I would also put the Marine Algaefix in the tank, IME it's caused no ill effects. As long as you have the space to house you're livestock safely, let the tank do it's thing and stabilize. Skimmers everywhere would be a plus. You could acclimate things right back in, or wait until you're finished with all your rockwork.
$.02
$.02
Several thoughts come to mind;
First I would want to know if there is a ton of phosphate bound up on the surface of the rock that may be feeding the hair algae.
Second, I would suggest setting up a temporary system in that spare tank to keep the fish safe. I would move some of the rock into the spare tank, fill it with saltwater (some or all changed out of the old tank), let that run a couple of days, then move the fish in. This way the fish would be safe, and you can take your time re-establishing the old tank.
Third (to answer my first thought) I would move the rest of the rock into a barrel, fill it with clean saltwater, heater and some powerheads. Let that run for a few days or a week, then test that water for phosphate.
Fourth, if the rock does not seem to be leaching phosphate, then yes I would probably bleach it. If it does seem to be leaching phosphate, then I would suggest either new dry rock (marcorocks.com) OR reading up on the muratic acid treatment to eat the phosphate off of the surface of the old rock.
Last, I'd put the main system back together, seed it with a bit of fresh LR, then let it run as long as you can stand to let it get seeded. (6 months would be nice).
IMO what your LFS guy said sounds good. My only reservation is that it sounds like there is a LOT of certainty in a lot of his statements (at least how you summarized his statements that is). That always makes me leery in this hobby. When someone says they know absolutely for sure what's going on or causing a problem, I start to walk away. If they speak tenatively and or with disclaimers such as "in my experience" or "quite possibly", I keep listening
First I would want to know if there is a ton of phosphate bound up on the surface of the rock that may be feeding the hair algae.
Second, I would suggest setting up a temporary system in that spare tank to keep the fish safe. I would move some of the rock into the spare tank, fill it with saltwater (some or all changed out of the old tank), let that run a couple of days, then move the fish in. This way the fish would be safe, and you can take your time re-establishing the old tank.
Third (to answer my first thought) I would move the rest of the rock into a barrel, fill it with clean saltwater, heater and some powerheads. Let that run for a few days or a week, then test that water for phosphate.
Fourth, if the rock does not seem to be leaching phosphate, then yes I would probably bleach it. If it does seem to be leaching phosphate, then I would suggest either new dry rock (marcorocks.com) OR reading up on the muratic acid treatment to eat the phosphate off of the surface of the old rock.
Last, I'd put the main system back together, seed it with a bit of fresh LR, then let it run as long as you can stand to let it get seeded. (6 months would be nice).
IMO what your LFS guy said sounds good. My only reservation is that it sounds like there is a LOT of certainty in a lot of his statements (at least how you summarized his statements that is). That always makes me leery in this hobby. When someone says they know absolutely for sure what's going on or causing a problem, I start to walk away. If they speak tenatively and or with disclaimers such as "in my experience" or "quite possibly", I keep listening
Sounds like a very drastic move that isn't necessary. How about slowly siphoning out the top layer of the sand. Every week, take 20 pounds or so out. The released gasses, should that even be an issue, will be released slowly. And the water caryring the sand out of the tank will (hopefully) also suck up the bad water. If you have carbon in the tank, it should be fine. I personally think the bad gases in the tank due to a DSB are largely theoretical. The gases are contained in the deepest part of the DSB. So, if you scoop up the top part each week, the bottom gasses will slowly convert to something else or dissipate and not harm the fish.
As for the DSB, it may remove nitrates, but it won't remove phosphate. And for what its worth, I had a 6 inch DSB with 100+ lbs of rock. I moved the tank. Removed the DSB, kept the rock, and still had zero nitrates. I personally think a DSB and rock is overkill. Yes it works, but is it necessary, in light of the live rock, has never been answered for me, other than my own experiences.
Best of luck.
As for the DSB, it may remove nitrates, but it won't remove phosphate. And for what its worth, I had a 6 inch DSB with 100+ lbs of rock. I moved the tank. Removed the DSB, kept the rock, and still had zero nitrates. I personally think a DSB and rock is overkill. Yes it works, but is it necessary, in light of the live rock, has never been answered for me, other than my own experiences.
Best of luck.
Possible NP Biopellets candidate? If it works for you... I'm sold!
Missed a few points. First, during the formation of oolitic limestone - rock commonly used in tanks - it can trap phosphates. The phosphates can be released as the limestone dissolves. Similarly, it will leach out over time. But it you are using the same rock for 7 years, this sounds unlikely.
Next, your rock will also absorb chlorine. Thus, you cannot soak rock in bleach, dry it, and put it into your tank and not expect a problem. My father did this with freshwater fish, and the rock absorbed a tremendous amount of chlorine. The reading was off the chart.
Next, your rock will also absorb chlorine. Thus, you cannot soak rock in bleach, dry it, and put it into your tank and not expect a problem. My father did this with freshwater fish, and the rock absorbed a tremendous amount of chlorine. The reading was off the chart.
That's a good point about gasses in the sand bed. In Some cases you may see some (is it hydrogen sulfate?) develop in the deepest parts of the sandbed, but often none at all. If you do have some built up, and you abruptly distrub it, it could be a problem. If you remove the sand little by little as IPW said, you would have little to nothing to be worried about. Personally I have taken down sandbeds up to probably 2/3 as old as yours, and there were no dead spots or "swamp gas smell".
IPW, can you say more about the chlorine issue? It's always been my understanding that if you bleach the rock, then rinse well, and allow to dry until it no longer smells - it would be fine to re-use.
We are talkiing about quite drastic intervention here, but at the age of this tank, I do agree that it seems very likely that the sand (and maybe rock) has bound up a lot of phosphate and may be the culprit here. If that's the case, then all normal means of nutrient export will effectively be "band aid fixes".
IPW, can you say more about the chlorine issue? It's always been my understanding that if you bleach the rock, then rinse well, and allow to dry until it no longer smells - it would be fine to re-use.
We are talkiing about quite drastic intervention here, but at the age of this tank, I do agree that it seems very likely that the sand (and maybe rock) has bound up a lot of phosphate and may be the culprit here. If that's the case, then all normal means of nutrient export will effectively be "band aid fixes".
Here's a long thread related to rock, bleach, acid and phosphate. I haven't read it all the way through, but I figured I'd post the link in case someone else has the patience
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1587539
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1587539
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Wow, I think we are on to something. Seems everyone concurrs that the possibility of the sand and rock is feeding the phosphates to the hair algae. We bought the 48" tank to actually make a reefugum sump. We were going to partition it off with lexan panels in 3 compartments. The first compartment was to hold a deep sand bed and then get filled with rock. The second was going to have more sand with our protein skimmer sitting in it. The third compartment was going to have just sand and be where the pump pulls from. We wanted to get it all set up and then discontinue the present sump which is wide open and just has sand and the protein skimmer sitting in it. SO that being the plan, maybe I should set up the 48" tank and put in about an inch of sand and fill the tank with water from the main tank. I can do this while doing a water change to the main tank. Rather than dump the water, I will dump it into the 48" tank. Then I can install a heater and move my protein skimmer into one end of the 48" tank. Now, I can get the trash can and take out more water from the DT and remove all the rock into the DT water in the trash can. Once all the rock is out, I can then net the 8 fish I have in the DT and place them in the 48" tank with the heater and skimmer. Then I can skim off the top 1" of sand and place it into another container with more water from the DT. Once this is done, I can remove all the rest of the sand, clean the tank glass with scrapers ect, and repair the dripping bulkhead connector on the bottom of the tank or actually replace both of them with new. Now I can rinse the sand I saved from the top 1" of the DT and mix it with some new live sand to a new depth of about 1.5" and then start mixing and installing R/O water with salt mix until the new DT is full. I guess I can clean and place some of the rock back in a little at a time after a good scrubbing. Once the tank cycles and the temp and water perameter are good, I guess I can place the fish back into the main tank and move the protein skimmer into the old sump. Then I can empty the 48" tank, build the new lexan partitions for the reefeum and them again move the protein skimmer over again and re-plumb the water through the new 48" sump and then use I can clean and use the old sump as maybe a tank for live rock under the main tank if I can figure out how to plumb all three together for water flow. Wow, this is complicated and I never thought I would be doing this 8 years ago. But the tank ran excellent for many years, so I hope it will run on light maintenance for many more years if we forge ahead with this major undertaking. We have come too far to pack it in now. All the comments on this thread have very very good points which will guide me through this. Please continue to add your two cents as this is very helpful. I would also like thoughts on how to best partition the 48" tank for that refugeum. Or however that word is spelled. Thanks All.
Re bleaching rock, I did read that thread, well at least most of it. General consensus is that you can mix water and bleach in as much as 10:1 ratio, let it soak overnight, repeat, rinse, and let it air dry for a few weeks, and you can be fine. My father did not let it air dry for that long, but did use de-chlorinates. My personal view is that it is safe to use bleach, but use much less than 10:1, such as 1/2 cup to 5 gal, and you will kill everything living on the rock. Since bleach reacts quickly, take it out after a few hours. Rinse, air dry until it doesn't smell, add amquel, and you should be good. Just my 2 cents.
