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Two part versus Calcium Reactor thoughts...
- Thread starter Reef55
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Dave McReeferson
laurifer crustulum
I think the point should be made here that calcium chloride is not merely scooped from the ocean and placed in buckets. I think the "it comes from the ocean" thing is a little misleading here. That statement could be much more accurately be applied to certain reactor medias however (though I am sure there are exceptions), unless I am missing something.
In reality, as long as we all attempt to obtain the highest quality "ingredients" (whatever route we take) and are diligent in keeping up with the latest news (like the recent change in dowflake for example) we will no doubt all have decent results, provided we don't make foolish blunders in other areas.
This debate is really splitting hairs here, it is more a matter of personal preference than anything else, as either method clearly gets the job done at the end of the day.
In reality, as long as we all attempt to obtain the highest quality "ingredients" (whatever route we take) and are diligent in keeping up with the latest news (like the recent change in dowflake for example) we will no doubt all have decent results, provided we don't make foolish blunders in other areas.
This debate is really splitting hairs here, it is more a matter of personal preference than anything else, as either method clearly gets the job done at the end of the day.Dave McReeferson
laurifer crustulum
Do you have a picture of this tank Dong? I would be interested to see what you consider a "fully loaded" SPS tank. I have never myself attempted to maintain my reef with Kalk alone, but from all I have read, it is not sufficient to maintain levels in a full on SPS reef system. I ask this not to poke at you, indeed, I am genuinely curious what kind of SPS stocking levels you are maintaining in this fashion, "fully stocked" means different things to different people, what one person might judge as matching that description might not be seen the same by another.
I really don't understand your statemeent about using Kalk alone to maintain a SPS tank. I think you must confused me with someone else. We all getting older and older.
Aquaman_68
too many gadgets to fail
Mark, I spent 30 mins last night explaining my experience between the two...For some reason (I don't know why.....) My window closed....(thought it may have been my fault...hitting a button...IDK)...Came back on tonight to retype what I had done the day before. (which I was too tired to do again last night) After reading more posts & banter...I decided to refrain from my explanation. I decided to put my two cents in...cause I did post a small bit stating I lost the whole page I typed for some reason & I would try it again today....
Basically.....to put it short.....Liam just stated it later tonight.....People with a huge demand in Ca & Alk can't keep up with the levels just using two part...I have a 155 bow front that is heavily dominated with SPS from one end to the other...top to bottom... front to back!!! As my system matured it became harder for me to use even the smaller two chamber calcium reactor...(which was a dream from using or trying to keep up with two part!!!) Little by little I saw that the reactor wasn't enough...(even trying to tweak as much as possible) So I started to drip Kalk at night with my topoff....That worked for a while but.....Even that wasn't enough!!! I started adding buffer as well as turbo calcium in conjunction with the Ca reactor & also the Kalk drip at night!!!! (& for you chemistry minds who want to chime in........No it wasn't percipitating out!!!)
Well about a month ago I decided to finally hook up my Geo 618 reverse flow calcium reactor...(single chamber that I've had over a year & a half!!!)
Guess what?....Still dripping kalk (but for other reasons) & I'm glad to say....no more dosing buffer or TC!!!!
So my moral to the story.....Two part may be good for some....But if you intend to have a heavily dominated sps reef.....It's not going to cut it!!!!
One note.........
When someone states something is ok (in any reef forum) & they are experienced in the hobby...You have to ask yourself this question.....(what is their expertise in the hobby?...Not in the field of chemistry....This is not directed to anyone in particular) Different types of tanks have different needs & also demands....One that doesn't have first hand experience within whatever side of the hobby can't speak for the other....period) I'm stating my experince in the hobby & it pertains to keeping a heavily stocked flourishing sps reef..
IMO.....(which means bunk to some here......)If two part is easier than a reactor it is only cause you haven't learned to use a reactor properly...
JMO...please don't be offended...BTW.....part of that long typed novel yesterday was a quick guide to setting up a Ca reactor...(as explained to me personally by Bob Mankin....over 8 years ago!!!!)
(& before that lesson I struggled for 6 months prior!!!)
So...I've posted more than you probably wanted to read.......(you might have been better off leaving me go off quietly)
Take it light....Not trying to offend anyone here!!! (did I say that already?)
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No offense B, I just can't resist:
When you go to see a doctor, do you want him to tell you this:
"When other doctors state that you are ok (in any hospital) & they are experienced in practising medicine...You have to ask yourself this question.....(what is their expertise in medicine?...Not in the field of chemistry nor biology nor pharmacology...This is not directed to anyone in particular, either)"
OK, I am just trying to be funny. No offense...please
When you go to see a doctor, do you want him to tell you this:
"When other doctors state that you are ok (in any hospital) & they are experienced in practising medicine...You have to ask yourself this question.....(what is their expertise in medicine?...Not in the field of chemistry nor biology nor pharmacology...This is not directed to anyone in particular, either)"
OK, I am just trying to be funny. No offense...please
Liam
letting it grow
seems several of us may have got confused Dong due to Reefsmurfs indication that you only used kalk.
Liam's comment was regarding kalk top-off not being able to keep up with the demand of a heavily stocked SPS tank, not two-part.
I don't understand your comment about two-part not being able to keep up with keeping levels where they should be if they have a huge demand in calcium and alk. Maybe the amount needed to be added of two-part is more than you want to add, but there is no chemistry function that prevents using two-part to meet any calcium or alkalinity demand that I am aware of.
It's great that you and others have calcium reactors running that are supplying calcium and alkalinity for your systems. I never said that they don't work, are bad things to have, etc. Just my experience has been it is easier to maintain levels with a doser and two-part solution. Never said it wasn't possible to maintain levels with a calcium reactor, just that I had a hard time doing it.
I've read many comments about people wanting to automate their alk / calc additions who had been using additives / two-part, and calcium reactors is almost always the answer given. I just wanted to point out that another method can do that besides a calcium reactor.
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I agree that limewater cannot keep up with demand in some SPS heavy tanks. The same does not apply to two parts additives, which can keep up with demand in any tank of any size, you just need to add enough. 
I read some where else that one can substitue CO2 with diluted acid and feed the acid to the calcium chamber with a slow dosing pump. Anyone ever experiment with that?
No, that won't work. Any mineral acid (muriatic acid, sulfuric, etc) that you'd use will deplete the alkalinity that you are adding. Any organic acid will likely require so much as to be a problem from an O2 and bacterial bloom perspective.
No, that won't work. Any mineral acid (muriatic acid, sulfuric, etc) that you'd use will deplete the alkalinity that you are adding. Any organic acid will likely require so much as to be a problem from an O2 and bacterial bloom perspective.
Originally Posted by Liam
i just used arsenic as an example Dong,there are many things on Randy's list that are detectable at low levels.
long term dosing could surely cause accumulation of certain elemnts could it not.
i will post this again incase it was missed
You are missing a fundamental point. A two part can add things and actually cause them to be depleted if there is not enough in the two part. I discuss that here:
How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
from it:
One issue that has confused some reefkeepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (lets call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since it has been claimed that copper is elevated in reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.
For example:
You have copper in your tank at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.
You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.
Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.
Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.
i just used arsenic as an example Dong,there are many things on Randy's list that are detectable at low levels.
long term dosing could surely cause accumulation of certain elemnts could it not.
i will post this again incase it was missed
You are missing a fundamental point. A two part can add things and actually cause them to be depleted if there is not enough in the two part. I discuss that here:
How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
from it:
One issue that has confused some reefkeepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (lets call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since it has been claimed that copper is elevated in reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.
For example:
You have copper in your tank at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.
You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.
Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.
Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.
I just added 0ne teaspoon to one gallon of ro/di,result was 12.0ph.
I increased in 1/2 teaspoon increments up to 4 tsp and the result was still 12.0.
so from my tests with my kalk and my ro/di i suspect anything over 1 teaspoon per gallon is kalk down the drain so to speak.
It could be possible my meter max's out at 12,i am not sure on the range of my acIII
This is an easy test for folks to do,i would be interested to see some other results.
Saturated limewater is about 2 level teaspoons of calcium hydroxide per gallon. Less if you use calcium oxide, as from the group buy of Mississippi Quicklime that Greg did many years ago (I still have and use it!). Potency is not easily measured by pH, but crudely can be. A drop in potency by a factor of 2 is about 0.3 pH units, with saturation at about pH 12.5. pH meters are often not well calibrated at this pH, so I recommend that folks measure the pH of truly saturated lime slurry (2 teaspoons in a cup of RO/DI) and then record that reading. Then measure the pH of what you intend to measure, and compare the pH.
Conductivity is a much easier way to measure limewater potency, with saturation at about 10.3 mS/cm (depending a bit on temperature). Half saturated is about half that conductivity.
Of course, one can also use alkalinity or calcium tests. Saturated limewater has about 800 ppm calcium and 40 meq/L (112 dKH) of alkalinity.
I increased in 1/2 teaspoon increments up to 4 tsp and the result was still 12.0.
so from my tests with my kalk and my ro/di i suspect anything over 1 teaspoon per gallon is kalk down the drain so to speak.
It could be possible my meter max's out at 12,i am not sure on the range of my acIII
This is an easy test for folks to do,i would be interested to see some other results.
Saturated limewater is about 2 level teaspoons of calcium hydroxide per gallon. Less if you use calcium oxide, as from the group buy of Mississippi Quicklime that Greg did many years ago (I still have and use it!). Potency is not easily measured by pH, but crudely can be. A drop in potency by a factor of 2 is about 0.3 pH units, with saturation at about pH 12.5. pH meters are often not well calibrated at this pH, so I recommend that folks measure the pH of truly saturated lime slurry (2 teaspoons in a cup of RO/DI) and then record that reading. Then measure the pH of what you intend to measure, and compare the pH.
Conductivity is a much easier way to measure limewater potency, with saturation at about 10.3 mS/cm (depending a bit on temperature). Half saturated is about half that conductivity.
Of course, one can also use alkalinity or calcium tests. Saturated limewater has about 800 ppm calcium and 40 meq/L (112 dKH) of alkalinity.
I see where the confusion came from.
For sofety/LPS tank, lime water as top off (provided there is enough evaporation per day) may be enough to keep a sucessful tank. Too much two -parts dosing in low calcium demand tank may cause water pump jam.
Yes Liam, do you have any information about the levels of Arsenic in Calcium reactor media? I don't see any posted.
I do. Craig showed it here for some substrates. Koralith had pretty high levels:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010210...twork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/aug/bio/default.asp
FWIW, the arsenic to calcium ratio is higher in that substrate (0.000009) than in seawater (0.000002).
I do. Craig showed it here for some substrates. Koralith had pretty high levels:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010210...twork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/aug/bio/default.asp
FWIW, the arsenic to calcium ratio is higher in that substrate (0.000009) than in seawater (0.000002).
Aquaman_68
too many gadgets to fail
It's the same statement I hear all the time & say as well..."more than one way to skin a cat!!"
IMO if you have a very large tank & your going to populate it with SPS...dosing two part IMO is the wrong approach!! JMO
So This is my mission statement in this thread...Others that plan on going big with SPS can consider this factor...
The two part I need to keep up with the demand in my tank is astronomical....Too much dosing!!! I've never had a problem with my reactor causing percip of ca yet using two I do remember way back in the begining of my hobby experience at having that issue when trying to bump up my Ca levels...(& yes all other levels were in check!!)
B
Liam
letting it grow
interesting,i have always wondered what all the dark particulate matter might be in media's such as koralith,arm,deltec.
I prefer to use the schuran type media that actually consists of larger pieces of coral sketelon rather than gravel,i would be interested to see if those tests yeilded similar results.
i also see no sign of elements such as bromine in those reactor media tests,where they not present or were they just not tested for?
Does dissolviong the media with HCI yeild identical results as dissolving with CO2.
thanks Randy.
Dave McReeferson
laurifer crustulum
Sorry Dong, I thought I was pretty clear that I was honestly curious and intended no offence.
Regardless, I guess I was mistaken as to what you supplement.
I think if you dose two part via the method I described (diluted mixture 24 hrs/day), you are in essence doing the exact same thing as you would be with a reactor. Impurities (whether in the end this is an issue or not, I'll leave that up to each to decide for themselves) aside, two part IMO actually does have some measurable advantages over a reactor setup IME.
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