Unexplained nitrates, Getting tired of this

[eSoteric]

OK. a ill back story here

In oct (haloween to be exact) my mother pushed a rio800 powerhead close to a pipe organ, the heavy flow for several days killed it. At first i thought this was why i had nitrates. Death of a coral, made sence to me. But they didnt go away, and there still there now. I have done countless water changes. I changed nearly all my water 1 week, still they were there at about 80ppm.

recently they have dropped to about 40ppm. Now i am using tap water ATM, and i know all about ro/di. I just tested my brothers tank also a tap water user and his were also about 40ppm. I just tested the some freshly made up saltwater and i got nothing. 0ppm

SO my 2 questions are this. Ro/Di unit. can this solve my problem
Im def buying one this month ive already started to look.

secondly: why are there no traces in my tap water of nitrates? dose it combine with other chemicals in the tank to porduce high nitrates?

some advice please

my test results are as follows
nitrite - 0 ppm
ph - 8.3
Ammonia - .25 ppm
nitrate - 40ppm in both tanks.



my test results are as follow

 

[starrfish]

There are so many things that can cause high nitrates. I also struggle with them, and do 5% water changes every day to keep on top of them. I know the reasons why mine are high and am addressing them with my new tank. A few questions to figure out why yours are high:

- How often and how much are you feeding the tank?
- Do you have a refugium?
- Do you have a DSB?
- What size is your tank?
- Do you have a sump?
- What kind of skimmer do you have?

I believe my high nitrates are caused by no refugium, feeding too much and skimmer not keeping up with feeding. I will be fixing every one of these problems when I upgrade my tank next month, but I've been doing daily water changes in the interim. I've actually gotten my nitrates down to 10ppm (which might seem high for most reefers, but I'm ecstatic!). Maybe you're in the same boat. Just some thoughts.

Daire

 

[NateHanson]

If you've got ammonia readings, something is very wrong with your biofiltration. Either you've got too many fish, not enough live rock, no skimmer . . . something fundamental. Have you tested ammonia before? Do you know if it's normally measureable, or is this an unusual reading for you?

Have you tested your freshly mixed water for ammonia? Maybe that's where it's coming from. That could explain your high nitrate too.

Tell us how long this tank has been set up. What size tank. What sort of substrate you have. How much LR. What fish and other livestock you have in there.

 

[Moe_K]

Josh, I'm wondering why your ammonia is .25 ppm.
Ammonia should be long gone by now.
Did something recently (past couple of days) die in the tank?
Ammonia is going to cause problems for you.

Now onto nitrates... I think Starrfish posed some great questions there.

When you posted the test results, were those for your tank water or for the newly mixed replacement saltwater?

An RO/DI will certainly halp you.

 

[eSoteric]

nate. i have never seen an ammonia test at 0. i work at an LFS and test daily. i always see .25 even in our main systems. im told this is very normal.

The tank is a 55 that is about a year old now. 11 months to be very exact. we have 8 fish, all very small with the exception of my scopus tang, who isnt even that big. i took out alot of fish for awhile too to see if this would help, figured my bio load was too high, nothing changed

I have 40-50 lbs of LR i have a Skimmer that is rated for up to 80 gallons. my sand bed is at least 2" in all places (i just added more to help but it changed nothing) also have a 9w uv in the skimmer. I feed 2 times daily and only feed as much as my fish will take.

yes i have a sump, no on the fuge. I was about to go to a larger sump and baffel an end of it and make a nice fuge with a very thick sand bed and macro alge, but the darn thing wont fit into my stand. so ill have to build it on the side i gusse. I have a 20 long pre drilled with an overflow, was thinking of making that into a nice large fuge and have it drain to my sump.

hopefully this will give you 2 a lil more insite into my problem. Im hoping my ro/di i get will make a big difference

 

[eSoteric]

moe all results are for the tanks themselfs. mine is a reef my lil bros is fowlr

 

[Moe_K]

What are the 8 fish? Sounds like a lot to me.

Oh, and detectable ammonia is not usual in an established reef tank. Ammonia should be undetactable.

 

[NateHanson]

I certainly agree that an RODI is a good/necessary addition. However I don't think it will address your ammonia and nitrate problems unless your tap water tests positive for ammonia, nitrite or nitrate.

That's interesting about your store never having a zero ammonia test, but it strikes me as strange. I've always understood that ammonia should never be at detectable levels in an established system. In the short time I've been keeping tanks I've never had a detectable ammonia level after a tank is cycled and stocked.

I'd suggest testing with a different brand of test to make sure that it's not a peculiarity of your particular test. But if it gives a similar result, I'd say that's your primary problem, and needs to be addressed before anything else.

As far as the nitrate problem, fixing the ammonia source might improve your nitrates, and I would definitely add a refugium if possible. I think a refugium with a strong light source does good things for any tank.

 

[DanStL]

Does you skimmer produce lots of nasty skimmate? From what I have learned, skimmer performance varys tremendously. An under-performing skimmer may be a problem.

 

[NateHanson]

oh, I missed the 8 fish. Tell us what kinds, that could be your problem.

Also skimmers are chronically over-rated for capacity. Tell us what brand, and maybe someone with experience with that model can say whether it's undersized. A reef often needs a more powerful skimmer than many manufacturers would like to admit.

 

[skyedolphan]

Josh I use togo threw the exact same things you are talking about and actually reading your thread brought back some unpleasant and frustrating times this is what I did to stop it and now I have a very low .05 nitrate problem and no amonia ( I overfeed and I know this and that is the cause of my nitrates ) I started a fuge made a huge difference within 6 weeks , also started ro/di only for the tank and a decent protein skimmer whereas I was running a prism I went to a jebo mind you not a great or possibly good skimmer but it worked and helped..but I would say the fuge and the ro were the most beneficial HTH

 

[eSoteric]

ya im sure the skimmer is subpar, its a viaaqua and it dose suck i get a full cup every 3 months. its somehting im looking to upgrade.. But the ammonia i swear ive never seen a zero test haha. i will test my tap water for you guys and post results later on that. should it be plain old freshwater for the test or should i salt it?

my 6 fish ( i lied what can i say)

maroon clown
purple fire fish
purple psuedo
scopus tang
yellow spotted box
tiny copperband (see they do ship fine that young )
mandarin

ok, go with it!

 

[Ray]

I overfeed and never have nitrates....hmmm I do have over 30 clams in my system that could help keep it at 0

 

[NateHanson]

my 6 fish ( i lied what can i say)

maroon clown
purple fire fish
purple psuedo
scopus tang
yellow spotted box
tiny copperband (see they do ship fine that young )
mandarin

Still lying! That's 7.

I'd guess your ammonia and nitrate problem is a combination of too many fish/too little skimmer and live rock. IMO 40 pounds isn't very much for a 55g.

For comparison, I've got a 65g with a small majestic angel, two clowns, two chromis, and a LM blennie. There's about 80 pounds of live rock. There's a small fuge (5g), and I'm running a Euro-style skimmer that's similar to a 120g-rated EuroReef skimmer (generally very conservative in their ratings).

I've managed to always keep zero nitrates (and zero ammonia), despite my not-so-low fish load. I'd say it has a lot to do with feeding lightly, and having a fuge and enormous skimmer.

Nate

 

[me2003]

1. I started with a fresh water tank and had to treat tap water for
chloramine. I believe RO systems help with this (see article below)

2. Did you test your water for ammonia before adding?
This will get converted to nitrates in your tank.


After seeing what my local water company was adding to reduce lead
(phosphates) and disinfect (chloroamine). I decided an RO system is
a good investment. There also tends to be a lot of silicates in the local water.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/index.htm

 

[clamm]

I agree with nate...you can cut bioload and continue to do water changes. ...Id go ahead and part with the tang 1st since you wont be able to keep it long anyway.

But you can try upgrading your skimmer...i like the euroreef in sump skimmers they seem very efficient. I haven't had much luck with hang on the back's one thing I have found about most hang on the backs is that they are over rated slightly so if it says 80G max its probably good for 50 depending on brand.

Maybe I missed it. how long have the fish been in? were nitrates ever under control with the current bioload?

 

[starrfish]

Josh, I didn't notice the ammonia reading in your first post. I agree with everyone else - that should be undetectable. What kind of test kit are you using? You should get an ammonia badge - if you work at an LFS you probably sell them there. It is a simple wheel of colors that tells if ammonia is present in your tank. If you have ammonia, you are going to have nitrates since nitrates are the end result of the process. Once you get the ammonia down, then you can focus on reducing the nitrates.

 

[me2003]

One cause of high nitrates for a long time is adding live rock to your tank
over time.
Many people can not afford to buy all of there live rock at the same time.
At $7 to 9 dollars a pound they buy it in 3-15 lbs pieces until they reach their
weight goal. Even people that buy a large quatity of live rock like to add to
fill in areas. Live rock contains a lot of material that needs to 6-8 weeks
to cycle each time.
Are you adding live rock to your tank?
This is not to discourage adding live rock. I am currently setting up
a large tank. I have a seperate tank that I am cycling the live rock in.
Each time I add a piece, the protein skimmer produces a substantial
amount of skimmate. With enough aged live rock and a quality protein
skimmer, your nitrates should be very low.

 

[eSoteric]

I agree about to little live rock, but the look of it was pissing me offand my lil brother needed some. I will build this fuge in a 20 long, add LR to the fuge with a 4 or 5 in dsb, and add more rock to the tank, and i gusse it its time for me to step up to a insump euro style skimmer! thanks for all the advice guys. and ray! i got 1 clam hahahaha. But its awesome. and buy the end of the month ill have 530w of light on the tank! go me! hehe

 

[eSoteric]

forgot to address another question, yes i have kept this many fish with fine results up until last Oct, ive actually had 13 fish in there + lps corals and it was working. so its very strange as you can see. i reduced bio-load, but i did take out alot of LR to give to my bro. Gonna get 20lbs today!