Tang to tank size

[johnnyb]

I have been reading a lot of posts and replies on the site bashing people for having tangs in tanks others feel too small. I spent a long time reading about what fish and corals I wanted in my tank and read plenty of peoples opinions. I started looking for actual scientific controled studies on fish in captivity and have found there are very few. I read this study and found it to be one of the better pages on the subject.

http://microcosmaqx.typepad.com/jay_hemdal/2009/01/beware-the-tang-police.html


or

http://coralmagazine-us.com/content/arrested-tang-police-i-refuse-confess


I am not looking to start a big fight on the subject but I believe it is best summoned up in the question of what is needed to have a healthy tang? Some say only one tang in a tank some say 8 feet of tank for 2 tangs. Why? Is it because 2 tangs need more space to swim? They certainly dont bump into each other in my 6 foot tank.( I have a yellow tang and a purple tang in a 180). Is it filtration? I very really have an issue with my tank chemistry with 2 tangs and I am fairly sure when I do have an issue its not from my tangs. Is it food avaiablity? A study by Dr. Ruth Francis-Floyd and Chris Tilghman seems to indicate supplements alone cant keep tangs healthy but if your system produces enough algea for them to feed they will do well with the addition of supplements.

Another argument seems to be the end size of a grown tang. It seems studies show more that tangs in captivity will grow only so much and the maxsizes people quote will never happen in a tank.

If we are going to question tank size to fish size what about wrasses? Should anyone own a wrasse that doesnt have 250 gallons? I personaly have a clown fish Im wondering if he is getting to big for my 180. Is it so irresponsible to have a fish and if his size gets to big for a tank trade/sell/give the fish to a person with a larger tank? If the fish is showing no signs of stress is it unhappy?

What about people with aggressive corals or anenomes in a tank together? I have seen people with torches next to bubbles. I have multiple anenomes together. Is it wrong to put corals together that may fight?

I guess my question is .... Is any aquarium fish / coral or otherwise responsible or is the whole hobby wrong? I jst dont think people should be absolutly pummeling people for what they think is wrong when things they are doing in their own tank may be considered wrong.

I will stick with Jay the currator of a pubic aquariums view If the fish / coral is doing well and looking good my tank is the right size.

 

[JohnK]

I don't follow? Neither of those links is even remotely close to a scientific study, they are opinion articles?? (much like everything else I have ever seen on this topic)

 

[johnnyb]

They are about as close to a study as you will find. I have looked and looked and have found nothing. So exactly they are all opinions.

 

[JohnK]

I suppose that's part of the problem with the topic, there is very little to no scientific data to support any perspective or opinion. Moreover I can't imagine who or how that credible scientific data would potentially be generated?

 

[johnnyb]

I did read one article awhile back where they studied cortisol and hormone levels it may have been mentioned in those links but I couldn't find it . That studies found no elevation in those levels in same specie fish in different size tank. If I Remeber correctly they used a large sturgeon in a relatively small tank and same size sturgeon in a way over the top tank. But who knows if those are actually levels that should be measured for fish health.

 

[Owen386]

If your Fish Looks Un Happy Move Him! Simple as that. Use Common since if the fish obviously looks Stressed or unhappy he will have a bad disease filled life. Obviously we are never gonna get close to the size of the ocean in are home. The only opinions I would take into account are those with first hand experience and thats it! not the so called "tang police". So 2 feet of swimming room in retrospect from a 6 ft tank to an 8 ft tank is going to keep my fish alive? Its Your Reef, Its your Fish. All we can go by is previous experience but every reef is different. If you know when your fish is full grown, and Full grown is far from "maximum size" because we all know the odds of getting a fish to max size in home aquaria is far fetched.

I might sound stupid here and old school thinking but I believe I fish grows to his environment (to an extent)

I just don`t know why A fish would waste all that energy in growing to the biggest baddest fish if there is no need. No natural Selection no need to fight for territory no need to hunt for food etc. etc..

I myself keep a full grown YT in my 75G and he seems happy as a button.

Good luck and Don`t let people tell you what to do in your Reef. Always with the fish first in mind though.

-Owen

 

[acrofragger]

1 ....its funny to me ,how some people think that a tang pacing back /fourth is happy .(news for ya not all the time is it happy it could be stress to )
2 there is a difference in keeping a tang alve and keeping a tang alive and have him thriving in your system .


3 a 55 gallon tank is in no way ever adequate room for a tang .ever .......................ever

tangs swim and eat all day long .............all day long even the ones in scholes, schooling fish. get my drift
how can you provide enough swimming room and or food in a small enclosed system like 55 gallons for all day long or more than one tang lol

im not saying it cant be done ,cus its done evryday ,evrywhere
its just not good for the fish ,you deal with so much more ......oh i need a uv or qt or this or that .......................no you need to make your fish happy


happy fish equals no ich period

 

[JohnK]

It's so very subjective. I often hear about how "happy" people's fish are, but how do we know? We sure can't ask.

 

[johnnyb]

One of the articles in the link discusses the pacing they author contends even in a 1600 gallon tank the tangs pace. The article on their diet states they are doing that for food searching and not swimming requirements. Like John says what does a happy fish look like? I've gotten ick on a tang 2 inches long in a 6 foot long tank. If a guy with a 75 has 2 2 inch long tangs in his tank is that not enough room? Or is it just no one has enough room for a tang?

 

[JohnK]

I'll add some of my opinions and why I certainly would be one of the many that at least might be considered "tang police" (and I don't consider that an insult)

1- Territorial behavior is a big part of why large tank sizes and or few tangs are reccomended. Tangs will swim back and forth in just about any tank, they are active fish. When there are multiple tangs, my observation is that very often they will display certain fin gestures and other interactions that I assume to be aggressive and territorial. If that assumption is correct, then I suspect that these interactions quite likely amount to an ongoing stressor that may be of significant impact to their overall health.

2- Alive, happy, and not dead are not all the same thing. I have seen many tangs that have been in captivity for some time that look physically terrible, emaciated, HLLE, tattered fins exct. The owners of said fish often describe them as "happy". I describe them as "not quite dead yet". Tangs tend to be pretty hardy fish but I do not consider "not dead yet" to be a very good way to live.

3- I don't regard aquarium fish as property any more than I consider my dog to be property. In my mind there is an ethical obligation to try to give cautious advice about the care of pets/living things. Treat your car like crap, well that's your buisness. Treat your fish like crap and tell yourself that it's "happy", and it's hard for me to feel OK about NOT trying to share a more humane perspective / opinion.

4- I see the lack of growing to normal adult sizes as a sign of neglect and or poor health, not an adaption to the environment.

5- Unfortunately many many reef tanks are short lived, and many of the fish that go into those tanks are short lived in captivity. A lot of people look at a fish that has been in captivity for 3-6 months and seems healthy and they will declare it to be thriving. In reality that fish may not be thriving, but rather just hasn't had long enough to really start to show it's suffering.

6- Tangs have their police, and get the attention of these sorts of debates for numerous reasons, here are some;
-They eat algae and are hardy, very desirable attributes for most reef tanks
-They look really cool
-Their behavior can be really animated and pleasant to watch
-They are readily available for generally reasonable prices (if anything in this hobby is reasonably priced that is)
-They are usually reef safe
-They are iconic of marine fish, who doesn't think of tangs right away when starting their fish wish list
-They are hardy enogh to survive abuse and neglect that many / most other marine fish could never handle
-As already said, most all of this is subjective. We all like tangs and are tempted to keep them. Cognitive dissonance tends to prevent us from seeing our livestock aquisitions as bad or irresponsible choices. (my current opinions and perspective are highly influenced by stocking decisons I have made in the past and now looking back I think were wrong. At the time I didn't think I was wrong)

7- oh yea I almost forgot. These discussions tend to bring out the worst in people. Kind of like the current state of politics, opinions are polarized and people are passionate. I try to play nice, but I certainly have been accused of "flaming" or otherwise being not so nice in my expression of my thoughts on this subject.

 

[johnnyb]

I understand what you have said there all valid points
My only question is if we feel that way why tangs. Isn't any large fish in that same boat or should I say tank. All of the points given can be applied to any number of fish or corals for that matter. if you feel that way no fish or corals should be contained in a tank. I understand giving advice but just because someone is putting a tang in their tank is no reason to attack them. We may have something we do they don't agree with and wouldn't want to be attacked by them.

 

[ShadowACE]

Hi

I found this link on RC a while back. Seems nice and conservative in the tanks favor. It has deterred me from adding gems that would find my 90 Mixed reef too small.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1946079

 

[The River Reef]

I suppose that's part of the problem with the topic, there is very little to no scientific data to support any perspective or opinion. Moreover I can't imagine who or how that credible scientific data would potentially be generated?

I have given this much thought myself... My opinion is a large group study would need to be conducted and controlled across the life spans of tangs in captivity (in varying aquarium sizes) and in the wild. I am talking about 50 gallon vs large aquarium sized habitats and some how tracking wild specimens. Then you would probably see a difference in lifespan. Length of lifespan is going to be the closest measure to being healthy and "happy"

 

[johnnyb]

I've seen that reef central guide and again it is just opinions. Also it brings up my question of is it ok to purchase a small tang and tradesellgive away when his size increase. Does that guide have any bearing on how many together? If we put those guides on tangs does that mean anyone with a 29 gallon or smaller shouldn't have any fish? I agree with the study guide lines we just need someone to do it.

 

[Kungfukid]

I think people just need to stop complaining
We are in this hobby because we like to see nice fish swimming back and forth in our home aquarium. So let it be, so what. Who in here rather see ugly fish in their tank? Say it isn't so
If you did not help paying for the fish, do not complain.
People spend alot of money to setup a tank, Let people enjoy their tank please

What is next to say? Go swim in a pond with a 200lbs alligator?

 

[firstimer]

wow people are going bananaz.. johnnyb - if you're system can handle it. if the fish looks like they swim comfortably. GO for it. its your money not theirs.

 

[The River Reef]

Lol kungfu... It is a matter of animal cruelty. Like abusing dogs or overcrowding any species in a confined area. You cant do whatever you please because you like to look at it... Animal control was created for a reason... We cant just say but it is only fish nowadays.

Sent from my HTC-PG762 using Tapatalk 2

 

[JohnK]

I understand what you have said there all valid points
My only question is if we feel that way why tangs. Isn't any large fish in that same boat or should I say tank. All of the points given can be applied to any number of fish or corals for that matter. if you feel that way no fish or corals should be contained in a tank. I understand giving advice but just because someone is putting a tang in their tank is no reason to attack them. We may have something we do they don't agree with and wouldn't want to be attacked by them.

I meant to allude to this point but didn't as clearly as I had hoped.

IMO the biggest factor is that tangs are by far the most commonly kept fish that May/do often exceed the healthy limits of their captive environments. There are lots of other large and or active fish but none so commonly kept as tangs. Go back a decade or two and all sorts of large fish were being crammed into fish only tanks (and often replaced like filter media). These days the reef tank is probably the most common type of saltwater tank, and tangs are the one big fish that can fairly easily be crammed into relativly small systems, hence the frequency with witch they do end up in relatively small tanks, hence the rise of the tang police.

I also agree that there are lots of things that get imported for this hobby that shouldn't be at all, and quite a few others that should be aovided by all but the most advanced and dedicated aquarists.

Again, I don't support the very bad manners often associated with the tang police, but those bad manners don't negate the legitimate concerns about humane treatment of the living things we keep.

 

[JohnK]

I think people just need to stop complaining
We are in this hobby because we like to see nice fish swimming back and forth in our home aquarium. So let it be, so what. Who in here rather see ugly fish in their tank? Say it isn't so
If you did not help paying for the fish, do not complain.
People spend alot of money to setup a tank, Let people enjoy their tank please

Would you say the same things about a dog? How about a child? If you can afford it who cares how you treat it?

BTW, there is a difference between "complaining" and joining in on a discussion about a perfectly valid question that someone has asked. Look back at your own post, who's actually complaining here?

 

[P-Nut]

My dad had a Tang in a 120gal tank, with a clown triger fish, 2 Lion fish, and a couple of other fish.

He changed 15% of the water every single week, and had some nice filters and 2 protein skimmers. The fish lived fine for a few years till he set up another reef tank. He sold all his fish to a friend of his that ahd a 120 gallon tank. 3 years later all the fish were still alive.

The 2 lion fish were big, but they only moved around at night when all the other fish werent moving.

that same tank at one point housed all those fish plus two sea horses, and a few crabs we cought in Brazil. The sea horses gave birth constantly and the other fish loved it. (this was 12 years ago)

where they happy?--I haveno idea. Please tell me how to tell if fish are happy. I dont think any fish is happy unless you throw them in an olympic swimming pool with only 10 other fish.
Where they healthy?---Of course. They all lived for a few years.