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randys 2 part caution from randy himself
- Thread starter doog
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From an RC post:
There are a number of Tetra calcium chloride products. I believe Randy mentioned earlier in this thread that although he's to busy to perform experiments with the different products, he is willing to look over some spec sheets.
Also, two part solutions sent me an e-mail saying thay are aware of the situation, they have alot of the older Dow product in reserves, and when it is used up they have a supior product lined up. I asked if the product was in the Tetra line but they never responded. I'm sure they would rather not say because of buisness/profit reasons.
Greg
There are a number of Tetra calcium chloride products. I believe Randy mentioned earlier in this thread that although he's to busy to perform experiments with the different products, he is willing to look over some spec sheets.
Also, two part solutions sent me an e-mail saying thay are aware of the situation, they have alot of the older Dow product in reserves, and when it is used up they have a supior product lined up. I asked if the product was in the Tetra line but they never responded. I'm sure they would rather not say because of buisness/profit reasons.
Greg
Aquaman_68
too many gadgets to fail
As I said before......
BTW...Disclaimer:
I'm not on anyones side here!!!
was kalk originally designed for pouring into a reef tank then
Ouch
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Gee,it's not reef safe.....
Two words"Interceptor Treatment".
Two words"Interceptor Treatment".
chew*
Murphy's Law
was kalk originally designed for pouring into a reef tank then
Not really to keen on the history behind kalk but I do know this, Quite a few major companies are willing to and have put they're name on it. I can also say that I never purchased it under any circumstances or any forms or packaging that was not intended for aquarium use.
What really gets the old noodle going is if icemelt was so good and so cheap why didn't the major companies slap they're name on that to...........hmmm maybe they knew something that others didn't.....or others were trying to hide............
chew*
Murphy's Law
Gee,it's not reef safe.....
Two words"Interceptor Treatment".
Which is why after having done a full tank treatment and experiencing side effects I am a big advocate of dips then quarantine tank not the display and not treating a display
added to the fact that it's the only true way not to get them........see bottom of sig before you get your underwear in a bunch.....
Which is why after having done a full tank treatment and experiencing side effects I am a big advocate of dips then quarantine tank not the display and not treating a display
Just joking around a little,Brian.
Besides I've never seen a bottle of vodka with "reef safe" on it.lol
I'm just a little disappointed as it seems everytime somebody finds a niche to save a little money in this hobby it quickly gets snuffed out.Are we so sure that there isn't higher powers here that complained about how their(repackage and sell) Corp. was losing money?
It's all relative anyways.So the money that some were saving with water maintenance will not be spent on "Designer frags" anymore.
There are things in this world that are food grade and you have a modicum assurance of consistent quality and the levels of cross contaminants (such as Vodka or pickling lime). There are things that are intended to be loaded in an open truck and thrown across the road for people to drive on. I don’t think anyone buying ice melt should be surprised when the purity of the chemical is brought into question. I am amazed that Dow even bothered to tell people misusing their product of a pending process change. Now for the people who will argue that the term misuse cold never apply to them, point me to the Dow product brochure, MSDS, application document or EPA filing that indicates appropriate for Aquaculture or for that matter approved for use on any living thing (like Interceptor) Quite a few things build up in a tank to levels above NSW, I try not to add to the problem just for a cheep bag of calcium.
>Are we so sure that there isn't higher powers here that complained about how their(repackage and sell) Corp. was losing money?<
Dow is a huge company. The amount of calcium chloride use by the hobby in comparison to industrial uses I would think would be very small. I think it's likely that Dow changed the process just to save a buck.
It's kind of ironic...I worked at Dow as a co-op student back in the 80's in Michigan. In Midland Michigan there apparently is a naturally occuring source of heavy brine not too deep below the surface of the ground. I remember walking back to one of the brine wells back in the woods not too far from where Dow gave us housing. The particular brine that these natural sources yielded was actually quite high (relatively speaking) in bromine levels when compared to the oceans of today. I believe that this natural resource was the reason in the first place that the massive plant in Midland was built there. Just a bit of trivia.
Dow is a huge company. The amount of calcium chloride use by the hobby in comparison to industrial uses I would think would be very small. I think it's likely that Dow changed the process just to save a buck.
It's kind of ironic...I worked at Dow as a co-op student back in the 80's in Michigan. In Midland Michigan there apparently is a naturally occuring source of heavy brine not too deep below the surface of the ground. I remember walking back to one of the brine wells back in the woods not too far from where Dow gave us housing. The particular brine that these natural sources yielded was actually quite high (relatively speaking) in bromine levels when compared to the oceans of today. I believe that this natural resource was the reason in the first place that the massive plant in Midland was built there. Just a bit of trivia.
smcnally
Tankless
What makes you think that some of the 2-part solutions out there WEREN'T using it? For all you know, bionic may have been using it all along in their two part solution. I'd be willing to bet that either they will need to find a new source for their calcium or maybe they won't bother and lots of people will be adding bromide to their tanks without knowing. Every additive we use in this hobby starts out without a fishy label on it. Don't fool yourself into thinking that because it has a colorful fish on the label that it is safer for your tank or that you are protected if you get a bad batch. Also chew, FWIW, most people didn't just start throwing dow flake into their tank until a chemical analysis was done on it pretty extensively by Randy.
Aquaman_68
too many gadgets to fail
Wasn't Randy urged by the company not to state that their product was reef safe & in fact wasn't sutable for reefs on RC?
On the forum he was writing in & also moderating on RC... Some how those text statements from the company were removed from the forum....Hmmmmm??? I wonder how & why that was possible...
"I believe that this natural resource was the reason in the first place that the massive plant in Midland was built there. Just a bit of trivia."
Interesting.
I know Dow doesn't really need our business.Just thought I would start a conspiracy theory.lol
Anyways,it is interesting that they acknowledged that reefer's do use their stuff.
Interesting.
I know Dow doesn't really need our business.Just thought I would start a conspiracy theory.lol
Anyways,it is interesting that they acknowledged that reefer's do use their stuff.
smcnally
Tankless
Hmmmm...Doesn't Southdown sand state right on the bag in bold text "NOT FOR AQUARIUM USE"?????? All that that means is that they won't take responsibility if something goes wrong, and why should they. I don't know what you are talking about when you say it was removed from the forum. Randy always made it clear that DOW Flake could become non reef safe at any time. So can the sources of the stuff you use too. Maybe you're right Brian...It all makes so much sense now because Randy was making soooo much money off of his recipe
Do you really think all your aquarium additives go through rigorous quality control? Please tell me you're not that naive...
Just to balance the folks that are making the blanket criticisms about using "icemelt", bear in mind that while one of the uses of Dowflake is ice melting, that is one of many. Dowflake is not an ice melt. It is a high quality calcium chloride that has many uses.
That is why Dow warmed customers about the change, and why their warning talks about potential problems with bromide that have nothing to do with ice melting (like forming bromate in highly oxidizing environments).
Also not (I'm thinking Randy meant 'note' here and not 'not') that every Dow grade has exactly the same new bromide level. Food grades as well as every other one. So picking higher quality grades does nothing to alleviate this problem.
That said, how many of you believe that every company selling commercial reef products (like two part systems) actually test for impurities such as bromide? I seriously wonder if any do.
When pushed, such companies, including the big names like Seachem, rarely have much understanding of what is in their products. In some cases, they do not even seem to grasp the purpose of intentionally added ingredients, much less the impurities.
I know it is disappointing to be limited in terms of using Dowflake, but we need to be realistic about what the options actually are and what issues they might present.
Personally, I use limewater and then also Dowflake and MAG flake to boost my new IO salt mix, but they are old bags.
That is why Dow warmed customers about the change, and why their warning talks about potential problems with bromide that have nothing to do with ice melting (like forming bromate in highly oxidizing environments).
Also not (I'm thinking Randy meant 'note' here and not 'not') that every Dow grade has exactly the same new bromide level. Food grades as well as every other one. So picking higher quality grades does nothing to alleviate this problem.
That said, how many of you believe that every company selling commercial reef products (like two part systems) actually test for impurities such as bromide? I seriously wonder if any do.
When pushed, such companies, including the big names like Seachem, rarely have much understanding of what is in their products. In some cases, they do not even seem to grasp the purpose of intentionally added ingredients, much less the impurities.
I know it is disappointing to be limited in terms of using Dowflake, but we need to be realistic about what the options actually are and what issues they might present.
Personally, I use limewater and then also Dowflake and MAG flake to boost my new IO salt mix, but they are old bags.
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Wasn't Randy urged by the company not to state that their product was reef safe & in fact wasn't sutable for reefs on RC?
On the forum he was writing in & also moderating on RC... Some how those text statements from the company were removed from the forum....Hmmmmm??? I wonder how & why that was possible...
Perhaps it as the mammoth kickback I got from Dow. Keep repeating to yourself "They are out to get me".
Perhaps you got your info wrong? It was actually Dead Sea Works declining liability for MAG flake aquarium use, and the warnings are still there WHERE I PUT THEM, including in my two part article at REEF Central and in my old forum. They are periodically discussed, including a couple of threads in the past week. Nevertheless, there is no reason that I know of at the moment to avoid MAG flake aside from the uncertainty that it may change. Not that it actually has.
There is a similar warning being added to the Dowflake part of that two part article. In that case, we know a change did happen, and need to act accordingly.
On the forum he was writing in & also moderating on RC... Some how those text statements from the company were removed from the forum....Hmmmmm??? I wonder how & why that was possible...
Perhaps it as the mammoth kickback I got from Dow. Keep repeating to yourself "They are out to get me".
Perhaps you got your info wrong? It was actually Dead Sea Works declining liability for MAG flake aquarium use, and the warnings are still there WHERE I PUT THEM, including in my two part article at REEF Central and in my old forum. They are periodically discussed, including a couple of threads in the past week. Nevertheless, there is no reason that I know of at the moment to avoid MAG flake aside from the uncertainty that it may change. Not that it actually has.
There is a similar warning being added to the Dowflake part of that two part article. In that case, we know a change did happen, and need to act accordingly.
>Anyways,it is interesting that they acknowledged that reefer's do use their stuff.<
I don't think they did. The letter from Dow just tells what the changes are. It does not in any way talk about the reef hobby.
>That said, how many of you believe that every company selling commercial reef products (like two part systems) actually test for impurities such as bromide? I seriously wonder if any do.<
VERY well said and so true. Reminds me about the sky high lithium levels that were in a brand of salt many years ago, and the funky counter ions in some of the commercial magnesium supplements. However, I do think that there is a decent chance that some companies that make supplements are much more likely to follow stuff like this (the change in bromide levels), and more likely to adapt and change sources if they were using the Dow material and think it now necessary to change.
I don't think they did. The letter from Dow just tells what the changes are. It does not in any way talk about the reef hobby.
>That said, how many of you believe that every company selling commercial reef products (like two part systems) actually test for impurities such as bromide? I seriously wonder if any do.<
VERY well said and so true. Reminds me about the sky high lithium levels that were in a brand of salt many years ago, and the funky counter ions in some of the commercial magnesium supplements. However, I do think that there is a decent chance that some companies that make supplements are much more likely to follow stuff like this (the change in bromide levels), and more likely to adapt and change sources if they were using the Dow material and think it now necessary to change.
Also note that every Dow grade has exactly the same new bromide level. Food grades as well as every other one. So picking higher quality grades does nothing to alleviate this problem.
Thanks, Greg. That's what I meant.
Thanks, Greg. That's what I meant.
