refugium and protein skimmer

[nicks387]

No, not a new reefer without a skimmer. I would never recommend that. Your right. I see your point. I am talking about a system strictly made for growth of corals like in a LFS where you are trying to get max growth of your corals, and I am just saying as an experiment I would and will try it for a frag tank.

 

[nicks387]

For the majority of systems out there I would say get a good skimmer and for a newbie get the best one you can afford, but to the hard core reefers I would like to hear about experiences without them as I do know they take out alot of good stuff that corals intake as well as the bad stuff, so if you can eliminate the bad stuff without the skimmer then you would definately get better results from your corals. This however is not an easy task.

 

[Joel A]

just a little FYI... the last Reefcentral tank of the month that didn't have a skimmer... was back in april of 2007.. oh, i forgot to mention... it's a 8 gallon desktop tank, with no sump, and keeps almost all softies and non photosynthetic corals...

so i guess i stand corrected, you can run a nice tank without a skimmer... just make sure it's an 8 gallon tank, with nothing but a small goby.

 

[Joel A]

For the majority of systems out there I would say get a good skimmer and for a newbie get the best one you can afford, but to the hard core reefers I would like to hear about experiences without them as I do know they take out alot of good stuff that corals intake as well as the bad stuff, so if you can eliminate the bad stuff without the skimmer then you would definately get better results from your corals. This however is not an easy task.

right... but if by that logic you're saying that skimmers take out nutrients and various micro fauna that or corals eat... then we shouldn't ever do water changes either, because that takes out coral food too... so a tank without a skimmer, and without water changes... how good would that one be?

 

[Bruno]

Can i just say 1 thing !!!!!!!!!

I love this site!!!!!!


Brs kicks a**!!!!!!!

 

[nicks387]

I disagree with the water changes taking out the micro fauna because the majority of these micro fauna stay on the rockwork and in the sandbed and on the corals themselves and come out in the water column with the phytoplankton at night which is why corals exibit better polyp extension to feed at night.

 

[nicks387]

You also will notice better polyp extension on low nutrient systems because the corals are trying that much harder to feed as the water is stripped of so many necesary nutrients. I should also point out that in a bare bottom system forget all of this as a skimmer is a must in a system like that.

 

[KSC]

 

[KSC]

 

[nicks387]

All this "good stuff " I am refering too that is skimmed out can be taken care of by shutting down the skimmer at night for an hour and feeding the tank, The bottom line is that a skimmer is better in 95% of the cases but I feel that in some cases a tank can benefit without one.

 

[KSC]

I took those yesterday, like I said, you don't need a skimmer. My tank is just a year old with 6 fish fom 3" to 6". I have a 15g refugium, but all the chaeto died. There are about 200 feather dusters in there and all kinds of strange looking things....

 

[Joel A]

Nice tank KSC-- I'll give you that. Looks good....

I'm not arguing that it can't be done... because it can... by why on earth would you ever recommend it? How many fish do you have KSC? How often do you do water changes?

 

[Joel A]

I took those yesterday, like I said, you don't need a skimmer.....

mmm you must eat humble pie daily, eh? Would you call your tank RC TOTM worthy? I wouldn't...

 

[nicks387]

Nice pics KSC.
I have seen some of your corals and I know you have some very collectible pieces in that tank. This is exactly the type of system I am referring to.

 

[Joel A]

I disagree with the water changes taking out the micro fauna because the majority of these micro fauna stay on the rockwork and in the sandbed and on the corals themselves and come out in the water column at night which is why corals exibit better polyp extension to feed at night.

I disagree. Better polyp extension is not because they are trying harder to feed, it's because they are less stressed from phosphate and or nitrate.

Also, what you said about the micro fauna makes no sense.... corals need flow in order to receive food, their sessile invertebrates after all.. they can't move so it has to be brought to them.. the food that they eat doesn't "crawl" to them off the rock work or the sand, it's brought to them via flow, so clearly it must be in the water column? Also, a skimmer skims your water column, not your sandbed or live rock, so how would it remove things from your sandbed or live rock? On top of all of that, in order to achieve proper nutrient export through water changes, you'd sure as hell better be vacuuming detritus from your sand and rocks, and not just taking random water out of the water column.

 

[Joel A]

look-- I always get fired up over this topic, as well as the "T5's suck" topic... and i really meant not to this time, but i did anyways.

I'll say this and leave it at this....

These aren't my own words, but they are very fitting..

"the reason the people in this grand earth use all things... they are designed to make life easier... why do we use word processors instead of hand writing everything, why do we drive automobiles to work 30 miles away instead of walking,... it saves money, time or makes things easier...simple answer.

If you wanna stand in front of your tank with a straw, a mirror, and a turkey baster let me know how it turns out for you! "

Another pretty valid point someone brought to my attention... people complain about the cost of a protein skimmer... that's fine, don't buy one. Instead, you'll have to do more water changes than the average hobbyist, and over a short period of time the amount of money you spend on salt would have paid for a skimmer...

 

[nicks387]

You are wrong.
Although some corals actively feed on available plankton during the daylight hours, a majority of corals open their polyps, extend their tentacles with their stinging nematocycts and actively feed during the night.

Ideally, the environment in which aquarium corals are kept should be as close to those on the reef as possible. A number of coral aquarists have found that feeding their corals at night with the assistance of an automatic feeder and running their mechanical filters and skimmers through timers which turn them off during coral feeding hours has provided good results.

Corals have polyps to feed. They have better extension when feeding. My tank has plenty of little critters crawling around on the sandbed and rock. Phytoplankton does stay in the water column and a skimmer takes it out of the water column turning around the total water volume 20 + times a day easy. A water change takes out 10 to 20% of the tanks volume once a week to once a month depending. Which one is removing more Fauna? The once in a while water change or the constant 300gal per hour skimmer?
Thats an easy one..

 

[KSC]

....but the electricity saved by not using a bubblemagno pays for my salt.

 

[nicks387]

T5s are great and so are skimmers. If everyone was closed minded as you are being we would never have used T5s because everyone would still be stuck on the halides are best crap, you should at least be open to other peoples ideas and experience. KSC has a very nice tank with no skimmer, bottom line.

 

[Joel A]

how is what i said wrong? I never said they aren't extending their polyps to feed, all i said was that i believe corals extend polyps further in an ULNS because they are less stressed, not because they are getting starved more. Could that be wrong? Yes, it could be.. it's just my guess...

Also, i wasn't saying your tank doesn't have little critters crawling along the sandbed and rocks, it does... but the these critters are far to large for SPS corals to ingest, so why are we even talking about them?

Could a skimmer remove more plankton than water changes? I suppose, but does it necessarily? No...

I empty my skimmer cup maybe once a week... and it's far less than 1/2 gallon of water volume... in that is all sorts of stuff, and it's obviously a higher concentration of crap than you take out in just regular water changes... this is true... but who's to say this crap we take out in skimmers is all phytoplankton or something similar? If i take out 10 gallons of water in a water change, i could easily be taking out just as much phytoplankton in that water change as my skimmer takes out in a week or a month...

Also, it's not like every ounce of water that is run through your skimmer is rid of all the beneficial stuff, it's just a percentage of it that gets caught in the air bubbles... ??