Glass tank building

[JohnK]

So Dave's demo has given me the courage, and I bet that at least a few others are thinking the same thing. (I was going to have one custom built, but I haven't heard back from the builder, and now DIY is looking like a very cool challenge)

Insted of pestering Dave with a million PM's, I thought it would make sense to start a thread and hopefully put together a collection of useful Q+A, tips, and possibly people's build pics.

I'll start with some questions about purchasing the glass. Anyone's input is welcome, especially those who have already done some of the homework;

-Is there a rule of thumb about the tolerances to be specified to the glass company? I have heard 1/32". I know I need to be specific about the panes being good and square, the question is "how square"?
-What are the questions, variables, or specifications about grinding and polishing the edges? (I have heard of different angles on the beveling, and also machine polishing vs hand polishing)
-Do most glass shops know what starfire is, or is that not standard knowledge?
-What glass companies have people used, and would you reccomend any supplier over any other?
-Is there anything else other than dimensions that I will need to know to order the glass? (I have been advised to get all dimensions and tolerances in writing before placing the order for obvious reasons)

Also, I know there is more than one calculator out there, does anyone have a good link to one for rimless tanks?

 

[Joel A]

well here's my thoughts on a few of them from what i've been able to kick up through my research into a similar project..

1. 1/32" of an inch or smaller is what i'd say as far as variances go, this can be tough on certain glass companies because in many glass applications variances of 1/8", or 1/16" of an inch is good, acceptable work... but in the case of aquarium building it's totally unacceptable. My advice as I said via PM would be to get that in writing from them.

2. As i said earlier, i think machine polished and beveled edges are the best way to go... you really only need it on visible edges though, so unless you're going rimless the only edges you really need polished and beveled are the vertical panes (joints where to pieces of glass come together) other than that i'd just have the non visible edges "ground". It's supposed to be a lot cleaner and more precise then if it's done by hand.. but i'd love to hear what others have to say on this as well.

3. In my experience most all glass manufactures know what starfire glass is, it's actually commonly used in other applications IIRC, like shower or steam room doors.

4. Can't help you as much there, like i said earlier, i've heard settles does good work, but you'll pay for it. I've had pretty short and easy glass work done by Brad's Glass service in Canton...

5. Well thickness as well (obviously) .. you'll need to figure out what the thickness you want is in mm, most companies don't work in measurements like " 1/2" " like we do, but instead in measurements like "15mm"... there are a number of different glass sizes available which are close to 1/2", and thus considered 1/2", but not exactly half inch... like 12mm, 13mm, 14mm etc. There are some thicknesses that are more common than others, but i forget which ones are more standard in the industry.

I don't really have a great calculator to give you for rimless tanks, but if you post a question asking about what thickness glass you should use on reefcentral there are a few gurus that can definitely help you out... one that comes to mind is a member named "uncleof6". He's great about helping people with glass projects, and he really knows his stuff. Keep in mind though, that he's very much on the conservative side when it comes to building rimless "wobbler" tanks.. he'll likely tell you to get thicker glass dimensions than you were originally considering, take it with a grain of salt as his approach tends to be building a "bulletproof" tank, when you can typically get away with using one that's not exactly bulletproof .

here's a good read about building a glass tank from start to finish.. it's not saltwater, but still a good read.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/27814-building-75g-all-glass-tank.html

Hope this helps.. looking forward to seeing what others have to say as well.

 

[JohnK]

Thanks Joel .

I also have much respect and appreciation for Uncleof6's input. I've corresponded with him before and will again on this one

I'm not terribly worried about the calculator as I'm much like Jim (uncleof6) and prefer to overbuild in the first place. I just want to know that I'm hitting that 5.0 saftey factor before ordering the glass

Keep the input coming

 

[The Ng Thing]

When I first worked with acrylic, I built probably 4-5 "prototypes" before I was satisfied with a final product. To those who are trying for the first time, save yourself some hassle and practice on broken tank scraps beforehand. No sense in spending $200 for glass only have it be a "practice run"

 

[JohnK]

I have built acrylic projects before. I agree that practice is critical, but glass is a whole different animal to work with.

Trying to focus on glass in this thread

 

[Reefried]

i cant offer much advise or info for you but i can answer the question "how square", well its like being pregnant, its either square or not theres no middle ground....!!!

 

[beckisguy73]

Being in construction I have dealt with some glass companies... One smaller company was Kapilloff (spelling?) and I got to know the owner and the son pretty good and talked to hime about some starfire glass. He told me if I ever needed some glass to let him know. I'm not sure how well he would take care of somebody else but I can try and get his number for you if you wanted... I would not ask him too much about tank building as they only deal with windows and glass rails.. If you are ever out in Cambridge check out the new Library Broadway st... Thats the job I worked with him on and he installed all the 3/4" starfire glass and we installed all the track to support the glass and the stainless rails.

Mike

 

[Cjtabares]

I was also thinking about building my own tank after seeing Dave's presentation. think I want to go with a 36"x36"x24" with a coast to coast overflow. What should I use for the overflow? I was thinking of using glass, is there a black glass I could use for the overflow?

 

[Dave McReeferson]

-Is there a rule of thumb about the tolerances to be specified to the glass company? I have heard 1/32". I know I need to be specific about the panes being good and square, the question is "how square"?

I'd say it depends on the size of the tank you are building really, but, for me, I'd say all dimensions are +/- 1/16", and all panes need to be square within 1/16" is a reasonable baseline for most builds.

-What are the questions, variables, or specifications about grinding and polishing the edges? (I have heard of different angles on the beveling, and also machine polishing vs hand polishing)

Unless going with 1/4" or thinner glass, specify ground and polished all around, no need for being more specific in most cases. Your local glass house is likely to send your order out to their supplier because of your already specified tolerances. These guys cut, grind, and polish everything by machine, doing it by hand is likely to land them quickly outside of your specified tolerance zones.

Now, how about I throw a wrench in the works and get you all confused? You can get away with "seamed" edges in a lot of cases (such as on panes that will not have visible edges). This is a rougher sort of edgework, let's call it ground, but not polished. It is not pretty like a polished edge, but is functional, and, may, save you a couple dollars if you are looking to do things on the cheap...

-Do most glass shops know what starfire is, or is that not standard knowledge?

Most glass shops know what Starfire is, but may not understand you if you ask for low iron. In the event that it comes up for anyone who is reading this, if you ask for Starfire in thicknesses over 1/2", you may be told it is not available. This is true, and it isn't. Starfire is a brand name of "low iron glass", and it is not available in thicknesses over 1/2" except by special (read $$$) order, other manufacturers offer low iron glass in thicknesses over 1/2", Diamante is one of them.

Working with Diamante glass (this may also apply to other brands, I am not sure) in large tanks, it is important to orient the glass in a certain way to avoid pitting. The "pits" I am talking about are very small, and not a concern structurally from my understanding, but, of course, we want our tanks perfect, so this is important. A UV lamp is used to determine orientation, I will go into this further if anyone is interested...

-What glass companies have people used, and would you reccomend any supplier over any other?

Call around, and go with the best price and apparent service IMO. I have a few shops I have used locally, all of the glass has come wrapped in corrugated cardboard, every one of them has had the same company logo printed on it. What that tells me is that no matter who gets me the glass, I am getting the same product, from the same manufacturer, it is just a question of who is "middle-manning" me the most.

-Is there anything else other than dimensions that I will need to know to order the glass? (I have been advised to get all dimensions and tolerances in writing before placing the order for obvious reasons)

That's a solid piece of advice there. It's never been an issue for me, they want me to come back, so they will fix what's wrong, but it always pays to be certain you can prove who is in the wrong if it comes to it.

I was also thinking about building my own tank after seeing Dave's presentation. think I want to go with a 36"x36"x24" with a coast to coast overflow. What should I use for the overflow? I was thinking of using glass, is there a black glass I could use for the overflow?

They do have colored glass. The overflow panel, or false wall, used in my 560 build is actually two pieces of 1/4" thick glass with a layer of opaque black plastic sandwiched between them. For all anyone knows looking at my tank, it is a piece of black glass.

For an overflow like I think you are describing, "Calfo style", I would suggest just using black acrylic, it is easier to work with, the materials are cheaper, and the same function can be fulfilled without any drawbacks I can think of. The only time I'd suggest going with "colored glass", is if the panel in question will be an integral part of the structure of your build, otherwise, you are throwing away money and effort IMO.

 

[Doherty]

Here is a link to my build..........
http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93192

You definitely learn alot working with glass for th first time, there are def a few things I would have done differently if I were to build another one. The biggest thing I wish I would have done differently is to make sure you have another person on hand to help with the construction. I to put this thing together alone......... Silicone starts to skin pretty quick, so you definitely need a extra set of hands! I wish I would have used the credit card trick like Dave used to smooth the silicone on the inside of the tank at the CRA build. That stuff is messy! Here are a few pics!

 

[s_kelley]

dave what was the total cost for the tank you built at cra? I've never purchased glass. It
think it would be a cool project for me in the near future.

 

[Cjtabares]

dave what was the total cost for the tank you built at cra? I've never purchased glass. It
think it would be a cool project for me in the near future.

I think they said it was about $200 worth of glass.

I have been pricing glass for the 36"x36"x24" tank I want to build and it would cost me $300 for 1/2" glass

 

[Cjtabares]

They do have colored glass. The overflow panel, or false wall, used in my 560 build is actually two pieces of 1/4" thick glass with a layer of opaque black plastic sandwiched between them. For all anyone knows looking at my tank, it is a piece of black glass.

For an overflow like I think you are describing, "Calfo style", I would suggest just using black acrylic, it is easier to work with, the materials are cheaper, and the same function can be fulfilled without any drawbacks I can think of. The only time I'd suggest going with "colored glass", is if the panel in question will be an integral part of the structure of your build, otherwise, you are throwing away money and effort IMO.

Ok so how would I bond the acrylic to the glass? I thought I have read some where that silicon will not bond them together?

 

[JohnK]

Silicone does not bond with acrylic with anywhere near the strength that it will with glass. That said, it works fine for installing things like overflows and baffles in sumps. It sticks, just isn't as strong on acrylic.



My next question is about supporting the bottom?
With a tank build on top of the bottom pane of glass (just like the demo build), what support is needed on the bottom?
Does it need to be supported throughout, or just around the perimeter? Anything special to keep in mind?

I want to build the stand with a little shelf around the base of the tank. ie, I want the stand to have an extra 3" sticking out around the tank. I'm picturing a rectangle made of 4x4"s that would sit below the perimeter of the tank, with a sheet of 3/4" ply as a top surface. Then build a standard stand underneath to hold that table top assembly up. Sound OK?

 

[Joel A]

well, like you said earlier, you wanted a bullet proof tank.. so i'll throw out two nice bottom bracing options out there for you.

Higher end tank builders like AGE use two panes of bottom glass, one for the vertical glass panes to sit on top of, and one that the vertical glass panels sit flush with, so it sits on top of a glass panel, and then a glass panel sits inside all four vertical panes. This is more expensive, and a bit more complicated and time consuming to build, but does wonders for strength and bottom bracing.

Another nice otpion is a eurobrace around the bottom... maybe 4" or 6" of eurobracing along the bottom pane... great thing is that it adds extra support, but you never see it because the sand covers it... so even though it may be ugly, you never see it and it adds good support. Glasscages uses this technique on like all of it's tanks... if you eurobrace you want tempered glass IIRC.

 

[JohnK]

Thks, good ideas.

So far I'm really liking the clean look of the build Dave did. Overbuild a bit on the glass in the first place, and you don't need to use bottom eurobracing or double bottom panes.

Nothing against those approaches, but the more complex the design the more one might screw up. At least that's the way I'm looking at this

 

[Joel A]

Thks, good ideas.

So far I'm really liking the clean look of the build Dave did. Overbuild a bit on the glass in the first place, and you don't need to use bottom eurobracing or double bottom panes.

Nothing against those approaches, but the more complex the design the more one might screw up. At least that's the way I'm looking at this

agreed, i wasn't going to use either approach either when i was going to build a tank, i settled on just overbuilding with thicker glass than necessary.

 

[dcforester1]

I like the idea of the two bottom panes, but are they bonded together?

Also Dave I like the idea of the black acrylic between two panes, are they bonded along each surface, or just along the edge?

Should the tank be drilled before it is assembled, or after?

TIA Derek

 

[JohnK]

Bump.....


Can anyone help with figuring out glass thickness?

I want to build a 36x24x20 rimless. I would like to build on top of the bottom (not around it).

My assumption is that 12mm would be good all around. BUT, one person said I would need 19mm for the bottom.

I haven't been able to find a calculator anywhere that considers braceless vs braced, or bottom under vs inside

Can't quite get glass qoutes til I know what to ask for....

 

[ffsteve]

hey jimmy,
12mm is fine on the bottom as long as you put a brace across it the long way. there is three ways you can do that. 1. when you build your stand make it like a flat shelf, 2. if you do a open frame put a cross support in it. 3. if you can't put a cross support in you can also glue a 12mm x 3" wide piece of glass in the center of the bottom underneath, keeping the ends about 2" from each end. that will add 30%more tinsle strengh.

also at lowes they have aquarium sillicone for like 3.50 a package in stead of 10.00 at petco(and you get more)