randys 2 part

[chew*]

Been reading this and although I agree it can get expensive, Something is missing IMHO.

I have heard or rather read to get rid of algae raising MG can help but if you use magflake it doesn't work.

Something has to be missing.............

FWIW dripping kalk is fairly cheap, I see no real benifits to dowflake + baking soda over kalk. MG isn't all that cheap.....there are obvious benifits to using magflake but once again something appears to be missing.

On a side note I have a year round source for both dowflake and magflake and may be able to get it cheaper than home depot sells it as its through a wholesaler.

 

[smcnally]

Been reading this and although I agree it can get expensive, Something is missing IMHO.

I have heard or rather read to get rid of algae raising MG can help but if you use magflake it doesn't work.

Something has to be missing.............

Yes it does work...If I'm not mistaken, are you basing this on your recent fight with cyano? If so, cyano is not an algae, but actually a bacteria. Raising MG will not kill it. IIRC, the raising of Mg was only recently referenced in helping kill off briopsis (not all algae).

 

[Rays]

SO I am paying for this crap for nothing? There is no know benefit to using a product specifically designed for the reef aquarium? Is that right? No extra elements??? Aparently I am missing the boat here... My calcium usage is getting expensive but hey we all got into this hobby knowing how expensive it is.... If I hear that using an additive that was DESIGNED for the aquarium has a benefit over icemelt than I am willing to pay all the $$$. It seems to be the majority vote on here that its the same stuff but I believe that you would still be missing some elements of some kind.... Maybe I am more tolerant of this because I don't have a 400 gallon system thats costing me 150.00 a month in additives.

Yikes! Not to be disrespectful, but hellooooooo. It's all the same stuff, it's just like owning a boat, marine parts $$$$$, gas at marina $$$$$$$$. Swimming pool chemicals $$$$$$$$, baking soda and muriatic acid, are some substitution for pool chems, save mucho dinero.

 

[chew*]

Yes it does work...If I'm not mistaken, are you basing this on your recent fight with cyano? If so, cyano is not an algae, but actually a bacteria. Raising MG will not kill it. IIRC, the raising of Mg was only recently referenced in helping kill off briopsis (not all algae).

Ok smcnally, In the case of killing bryopsis it was mentioned that magflake MG would not be effective but a store bought product would.........

There still has to be something missing in order for this to be true.....

Fwiw this winter i will conduct my own test on ice with esv calcium and esv magnesium. If the store bought stuff doesn't melt ice then there is no way in hell i'm putting icemelt in my system.

FWIW both of those brands emit a form of grease through the bags. I use to deliver it by the pallet and carry it in bag by bag to apartment complexes.

Also FWIW if the contents of the bag can leach out, then it's a fairly good assumption that "stuff" can leach in. Being that i have worked in the shipping industry, who knows what extra "goodies" you can or are adding to your tank.

I seem to remember one shipment coming in a trailer full of chemical supplies which usually get shipped together, yes mag and dow are chemicals, I seem to recall the fumes from damaged bleach and ammonia bottles almost killed us when the door opened as a few cases had an accident.......

Yah let me put some of that in my tank............

 

[MikeG]

Ok smcnally, In the case of killing bryopsis it was mentioned that magflake MG would not be effective but a store bought product would.........

There still has to be something missing in order for this to be true.....

Fwiw this winter i will conduct my own test on ice with esv calcium and esv magnesium. If the store bought stuff doesn't melt ice then there is no way in hell i'm putting icemelt in my system.

FWIW both of those brands emit a form of grease through the bags. I use to deliver it by the pallet and carry it in bag by bag to apartment complexes.

Also FWIW if the contents of the bag can leach out, then it's a fairly good assumption that "stuff" can leach in. Being that i have worked in the shipping industry, who knows what extra "goodies" you can or are adding to your tank.

I seem to remember one shipment coming in a trailer full of chemical supplies which usually get shipped together, yes mag and dow are chemicals, I seem to recall the fumes from damaged bleach and ammonia bottles almost killed us when the door opened as a few cases had an accident.......

Yah let me put some of that in my tank............

Take a look at the article I posted earlier in this thread, it shows the concentrations of 21 elements measured in Dowflake and several of the common aquarium industry additives.

 

[tone2607]

Here it is. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php#7

kind of confusing how would u mix this

 

[chew*]

Intersting info mike, still doesn't alleviate the fact that accidents can and do happen in the shipping industry. Btw we ended up selling all that mag and dow flake, after all its only intended purpose is to "melt ice" and just about everyone in the shipping industry will and does treat it as such.

 

[LuckyReefer]

Yikes! Not to be disrespectful, but hellooooooo. It's all the same stuff, it's just like owning a boat, marine parts $$$$$, gas at marina $$$$$$$$. Swimming pool chemicals $$$$$$$$, baking soda and muriatic acid, are some substitution for pool chems, save mucho dinero.

You aren't being disrespectful at all... I am very interested in this thread. We all spend our hard earned $$ on our own mini eco-systems. If I can save a few bucks by using Ice-melt and Baking Soda, I am all for it. But by using such sources for some of my additives I am "cheating" my tank out of necessary components that are helping my tank "thrive" that are otherwise added by a Seachem product I would definetly not use Ice-melt or Baking Soda.

 

[chew*]

Lucky after reading the link that mikeg provided I wouldn't go as far to say it's cheating the reef out of essential elements, My concern is more towards recieving it from a reliable source. Greg did do a cheical analysis on the batch from the group buy, if greg feels safe enough to put it in his tank then I'm preety sure its quite safe. I personally would not consider home depot as a reliable source and would wait for a group buy along with a fresh chemical analysis of the group buy batch before adding it to my tank.

Seems mikeg had the same concerns as I and did his homework quite well I might add.

 

[smcnally]

Chew, I'm sorry man, but you really should read up on this stuff before you start saying something (or somewhere) is a poor source. Many people have said exactly what you are saying and all have been proven wrong in the past. Dowflake will melt ice because calcium chloride (the same stuff in your seachem) in its dry form heats up when it comes in contact with water. Your premixed seachem may slightly melt ice, but not like the dry pellet form. Nothing leaches out of the bags... if you see anything leaching from the bag it is due to moisture getting in a tear and dripping back out. The bags need to be sealed from moisture and humidity to keep the product from basically melting. Getting a non contaminated bag is as easy as inspecting the bag for tears or hard spots before buying it.

Bottom line is Calcium Chloride is Calcium Chloride. Yes, some icemelt may be of poorer quality but Dow Flake has been tested by Randy and I'd like to believe a chemist of his caliber knows what he's talking about.

 

[chew*]

I may be guilty of not doing my homework, and all of the above statements may true be save for this comment.

" Nothing leaches out of the bags... if you see anything leaching from the bag it is due to moisture getting in a tear and dripping back out. The bags need to be sealed from moisture and humidity to keep the product from basically melting."

Having handled well over 100 pallets (50 bags to a pallet) of the above PERSONALLY I think that I may have quite a bit more experience in the department of whether they leach out or not. I wore gloves when handling completely sealed non ripped bags and they certainly do emit a form of grease. Had i not worn gloves my hands would have been dried out and cracked. I know as this happened my first day on "the job"

Any type of packaging that can leach out can leach in.

Once again I would question the source that it comes from and would require a chemical analysis before i thought of adding it to my tank.

Having dealt with home depot in the shipping industry I would not consider them a reliable source........Can you count how many different chemicals they carry? Ice melt is not special it doesn't get its own personal truck to get shipped in...............

 

[smcnally]

I may be guilty of not doing my homework, and all of the above statements may true be save for this comment.

" Nothing leaches out of the bags... if you see anything leaching from the bag it is due to moisture getting in a tear and dripping back out. The bags need to be sealed from moisture and humidity to keep the product from basically melting."

Having handled well over 100 pallets (50 bags to a pallet) of the above PERSONALLY I think that I may have quite a bit more experience in the department of whether they leach out or not.

That is kind of a silly statement. I handle iced coffee each day but don't claim the cups leach out because they are wet.

I wore gloves when handling completely sealed non ripped bags and they certainly do emit a form of grease. Had i not worn gloves my hands would have been dried out and cracked. I know as this happened my first day on "the job"

The "grease" you speak of is the calcium chloride "melting" from getting wet. This will only happen when the bag has been cut or is not sealed. If you inspect the bag before you buy it, you will easily see if it has been contaminated. Your hands dried and cracked because the calcium chloride was pulling the moisture right out of them.

Any type of packaging that can leach out can leach in.

Once again I would question the source that it comes from and would require a chemical analysis before i thought of adding it to my tank.

The chemical analysis has been done....by a very well known chemist. So do you really think that the seachem brand stuff is really more safe? Their stuff isn't medical grade or anything. I would think Dow has much more stringent standards then seachem.

Having dealt with home depot in the shipping industry I would not consider them a reliable source........Can you count how many different chemicals they carry? Ice melt is not special it doesn't get its own personal truck to get shipped in...............

You also have know idea who seachem gets their calcium chloride from or what other chemicals it ships with on the way to their facilities.

 

[chew*]

Once again I would question the source that it comes from and would require a chemical analysis before i thought of adding it to my tank.

The chemical analysis has been done....by a very well known chemist. So do you really think that the seachem brand stuff is really more safe? Their stuff isn't medical grade or anything. I would think Dow has much more stringent standards then seachem.

Manufacturers implore the right with the "specifications subject to change without notice"

You also have know idea who seachem gets their calcium chloride from or what other chemicals it ships with on the way to their facilities.

No your absolutely right, however dowflake and magflake brands have nothing to "lose" by they're "icemelt" not meeting your reeftanks criteria.

I would think seachem, esv, kent marine, would have a lot more to lose such as they're reputation in the reefing industry.

I can't see how a large group of reefers on the other hand could ruin a company that produces "icemelt products" image or reputation by telling the world that it killed they're SPS collection.

Anyway this can go on and on, I'm always welcome to change and a cheaper route if its safer or works better.

At this very moment It appears that "I'm guilty as charged" for being a concerned or conciensous reefkeeper and not taking someones say so that its's 100% safe.

Maybe i'm gun shy atm because I recieved redbugs from some people that claimed to be 100% pest free...............alot of that going around lately it seems.

 

[smcnally]

Never believe anyone is 100% pest free. There are TONS of people that have pests that don't even know it. I'm not trying to give you crap, but I just don't want to see people get scared to use a product that many people have used for years without problems.

 

[LuckyReefer]

this is a great thread!..lol

 

[doog]

well then

WEll I am looking to save but not have to hunt for the chemicals> I ordered 30 hallons worth yesterday plus 2 1 gallon bottles and a couple of measures for 150 delivered from

http://www.twopartsolution.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=154

I pay 107 for 8 gallons of esv so i should be saving at least triple the money i am thinking

 

[Moe_K]

Just a timely note: Randy is going to be one of the guest speakers at this month's meeting. I'm sure he'll take questions as per usual. One of you fellows should ask him for differences between Magflake, Dowflake, and baking soda versus the aquarium products sold on shelves. Is there any reason to be concerned with the cheap alternatives?

 

[delta]

WEll I am looking to save but not have to hunt for the chemicals> I ordered 30 hallons worth yesterday plus 2 1 gallon bottles and a couple of measures for 150 delivered from

http://www.twopartsolution.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=154

I pay 107 for 8 gallons of esv so i should be saving at least triple the money i am thinking

Also very soon you willl be able to stock up and get a much better deal than the that website. Home depot and some local hardware stores will have it in stock for the winter season

 

[chew*]

I will be at the meeting, should be preety good then. I would be glad to pop the questions. I will go one step further and ask him who he reccomends going through as a reliable source versus possibly contaminated warehousing.

 

[dz6t]

I will go one step further and ask him who he reccomends going through as a reliable source versus possibly contaminated warehousing.

Chew, that is a very good question. I was wondering about possible contamination from HomeDepot too untill I bought the first bag of Dowflake. The packaging is good and the bag is nicely sealed. As long as you buy a bag that is not broken, you should be fine. Actually, CSV is repackaged Dowflake.

As far as other Ice melt product other than Dowflake, I will not use them as they may have other additive/filler in them.

Even though Dowflake can be used as ice melt, it actually is a pure chemical containing Calcium Chloride and water only. It is as good as food grade Calcium Chloride (but please don't eat it).