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To Shut Down or Not to Shut Down. That is the Question.
- Thread starter Mike Lemming
- Start date
I don’t think 0 phosphate is responsible for what happens here.
0 phosphate will slow down SPS growth, but it won’t make them decline like that. These sps are aquacultured for a long time and photosynthesis alone can sustain them.
The situation looks more like contamination of heavy metals and/or bad organic compounds.
0 phosphate will slow down SPS growth, but it won’t make them decline like that. These sps are aquacultured for a long time and photosynthesis alone can sustain them.
The situation looks more like contamination of heavy metals and/or bad organic compounds.
Mike, that sucks man. Don’t break it down. You have given some good information but we definitely need more. The one ICP test doesn’t provide much insight, but it does help. I agree that if you are going to do ICP’s you should do them at a set point in time. Like 4 times a year, twice a year etc. It is always great to have an icp from a time when the tank was thriving. Either way, I personally don’t think ICP testing is all it’s cracked up to be.
Back to your tank. I agree that your par seems ok, a little low for my liking but I doubt it is too low to kill corals.
While I also agree that having undetectable phosphate is not great for most reef tanks, and SPS tanks specifically, if all other parameters are good then bottoming out phosphate shouldn’t be the reason you can’t keep SPS. I think it would be much more devastating if a thriving SPS tank that had consistent levels of phosphate quickly bottomed out. The corals would not appreciate that. I personally believe that SPS tanks can handle much more pO4 than current reef “standards”.
What is your fish load? If I were you and I wanted to raise phosphate I wouldn’t add a bottled product. I would simply feed more. Phosphate is far easier to raise than nitrate, and can be done simply with food. I also believe that bottled p04 products are a bit weird as you are simply adding a product to satisfy your own personal need to see some result on a test. Not to do what’s right for the tank. The animals in the tank go through a vigorous process to take up phosphate, and adding the end result to achieve number on a test kit kind of circumvents the natural process that should be taking place.
How often are you doing water changes? It seems like people have gotten away from what was the very core of keeping reef tanks for 30 years. I personally do them every other week. I also do them anytime I see something I don’t like. I do them before every vacation, as soon as I get back from vacation etc.
Dong makes a good point about a large water change to possibly reset or help stabilize. He loves IO and reef crystals and I value his opinion. I use a different salt but either way.
When is the last time you changed all of your RO filters? I would possibly run some metal absorbing media or floss, and I would definitely run some carbon, changing out weekly for a month after some good sized water changes.
Have you looked at the tank at night with a flashlight? Have you eliminated possible SPS pest? AEFW, red bugs, black bugs, white bugs, whatever other color bugs there are nowadays?
Are you dosing any form of carbon source? If you are I would stop.
My tank was set up with brand new Marco rocks, which I would never do again, but I put SPS in a month and a half later and they were fine.
I would get back to the basics. Have a bunch of fish, feed them heavy, keep basic parameters stable, especially salinity. Do water changes. Don’t chase PH, or even alk to some degree. Don’t pull your hair out trying to keep nitrate or phosphate at the current “hobby standard”. SALINITY, Temp, light, and flow. There are some basic SPS that I could keep alive in a 5 gallon bucket with a Maxijet, a heater, and a reading lamp. I think maybe there is some metal, some element of your tap water, or some heavy organic compound that is hurting your chances. Check all of your magnets, take your pumps apart and check them thoroughly.
Back to your tank. I agree that your par seems ok, a little low for my liking but I doubt it is too low to kill corals.
While I also agree that having undetectable phosphate is not great for most reef tanks, and SPS tanks specifically, if all other parameters are good then bottoming out phosphate shouldn’t be the reason you can’t keep SPS. I think it would be much more devastating if a thriving SPS tank that had consistent levels of phosphate quickly bottomed out. The corals would not appreciate that. I personally believe that SPS tanks can handle much more pO4 than current reef “standards”.
What is your fish load? If I were you and I wanted to raise phosphate I wouldn’t add a bottled product. I would simply feed more. Phosphate is far easier to raise than nitrate, and can be done simply with food. I also believe that bottled p04 products are a bit weird as you are simply adding a product to satisfy your own personal need to see some result on a test. Not to do what’s right for the tank. The animals in the tank go through a vigorous process to take up phosphate, and adding the end result to achieve number on a test kit kind of circumvents the natural process that should be taking place.
How often are you doing water changes? It seems like people have gotten away from what was the very core of keeping reef tanks for 30 years. I personally do them every other week. I also do them anytime I see something I don’t like. I do them before every vacation, as soon as I get back from vacation etc.
Dong makes a good point about a large water change to possibly reset or help stabilize. He loves IO and reef crystals and I value his opinion. I use a different salt but either way.
When is the last time you changed all of your RO filters? I would possibly run some metal absorbing media or floss, and I would definitely run some carbon, changing out weekly for a month after some good sized water changes.
Have you looked at the tank at night with a flashlight? Have you eliminated possible SPS pest? AEFW, red bugs, black bugs, white bugs, whatever other color bugs there are nowadays?
Are you dosing any form of carbon source? If you are I would stop.
My tank was set up with brand new Marco rocks, which I would never do again, but I put SPS in a month and a half later and they were fine.
I would get back to the basics. Have a bunch of fish, feed them heavy, keep basic parameters stable, especially salinity. Do water changes. Don’t chase PH, or even alk to some degree. Don’t pull your hair out trying to keep nitrate or phosphate at the current “hobby standard”. SALINITY, Temp, light, and flow. There are some basic SPS that I could keep alive in a 5 gallon bucket with a Maxijet, a heater, and a reading lamp. I think maybe there is some metal, some element of your tap water, or some heavy organic compound that is hurting your chances. Check all of your magnets, take your pumps apart and check them thoroughly.
OP
OP
Thanks man. I'm going to stick it out with this tank for a while longer. The only real pest I have currently is vermitid snails. They piss me off but it is what it is.. Thanks for the help!
OP
OP
Is that what you're using in the farm?
OP
OP
Hey man!
I have been dosing phosphates every day in hopes to bring them up. And, I get it when you are saying to add fish which is totally true. My bioload is relatively low. I only have 3 tangs, 1 wrasse, 1 angel and a clown. They were all quarantined and honestly, between the tang aggression and having to quarantine again, I haven't wanted to add any new fish although I have like 6 fish on my list that I would love to add! I feed quite heavy in my opinion and contrary to what you said, I see the nitrates go up significantly but not my phosphates. I made my own frozen food with Dong's recipe (along with the occasional store bought frozen fish foods) and like he says, it's potent stuff. Just doesn't do much for my Po4.
As for water changes, I change about about 30% monthly. 40 gallon water changes in a 130 gallon system. I have been using Fritz blue box since I started the tank. I like it because it mixes clean, but I've always wondered if I should switch as I don't see that many people using it.
I am open to a larger water change, but wouldn't that be counter productive as it will lower my phosphates? I guess that's assuming phosphate is the issue. Which it might now be..
As for RO filters, I change the carbon block and sediment filter like twice a year. and I changed out my membrane a few months back. I also change the mixed bed regularly.
I have not really looks at the tank at night to be honest. I'll have to try that tonight.
No to carbon dosing..
My tank is kind of simple I believe. Filter roller, skimmer, turf scrubber (attempting to lower No3), and then alk and cal on a doser. That's really it..
I plan to purchase a hydrometer. I've always heard that the hanna pen isn't the best even though I calibrate it before every use. I just didn't want to believe it because it was so easy to use and I liked that part or it.
I'm going to send in another ICP on Tuesday to see if anything else comes up. Hopefully this is all something easy like salinity. It would be fantastic If it were salinity and I could fix that and everything does well.
We will see.
Thanks for all the help!
I use Reefcrystals and Tropic Marin in different systems. There is absolutely no difference.
OP
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After about a year in the hobby, I got away from IO/RC just because of how dirty it made my mixing jug. Honestly, I have seen and heard a lot of successful reefers using it though!
OP
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I'm going to send it an ICP on Tuesday and report back. Thanks Dong!
OP
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That's what I was thinking too..
I tried the salt you are using for about 6 months many years ago but my experience was negative. Hopefully they improved over the years.
OP
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I'm definitely open to switching salts.. The main reason I got it is because of the parameters. It seems like at lot of the salt mixes out there run a higher Alk like 9+ right?
Shutting down your fleece roller and or shrubber will help bring up your phos. Incorperate a way to maintain your nitrate. I was in the same boat as you for the first 2 years. U will figure this out!
If you believe nutrients are the issue I would shut the fleece roller off, and possibly feed something like reef roids. Which I don’t like personally but it will definitely raise phosphate.
The Tropic Marin hydrometer is the gold standard for hobby level salinity testing, and it’s easy to use, you just have to do the temperature adjustment.
Water changes do not lower phosphate. They will temporarily, if you tested the day after a water change, but then the later of phosphate on your rock will in essence leach some back out into the water column until they reach equilibrium. I wouldn’t not worry about feeding more in terms of raising nitrate. Let it go up.
The Tropic Marin hydrometer is the gold standard for hobby level salinity testing, and it’s easy to use, you just have to do the temperature adjustment.
Water changes do not lower phosphate. They will temporarily, if you tested the day after a water change, but then the later of phosphate on your rock will in essence leach some back out into the water column until they reach equilibrium. I wouldn’t not worry about feeding more in terms of raising nitrate. Let it go up.
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But shouldn’t I try to match my salt all with what I alk I want to run the tank at?
OP
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Like a year ago, my phosphates were low but my nitrates were running into the high 30’s, maybe even 40. So the roller has lowered them into the 20’s for now. I have the scrubber going in order to lower the nitrates as well. I heard a few different times from some reputable people that scrubbers are good for lowering nitrates but don’t impact the phosphates too much..
OP
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Ive been dosing 12 ml’s a day of phosphate and it’s slowly going up. Yesterday, I did a 12 ml dose in the morning and one at night. Just tested again, phosphate is at .055 so that’s nice to see for a change!
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