Bleaching Live Rock

[stevenp]

I'm soaking some LR in 1 cup bleach per gallon of water for two weeks. How sure can I be that EVERYTHING on this rock will be 100% gone. A couple pieces have some weird macro, cotton candy algae and some other annoying crap on them. Will the bleach penetrate the rock to kill what's living on the inside as well (worms)?

I was also thinking about soaking two weeks the way it's sitting now, then rotating the rock 180 degrees and soaking another two weeks just in case anything is surviving in a air pocket.

After the soak, I plan to let the rock bake in the sun for a couple weeks. After the bake, I'll throw it all in FW and circulate the water for another week to make sure all the bleach is gone.

I'm going to be setting up a 90 gallon tank at the new house and want to make sure everything that is living in the tank was put there by yours truely.

Steve

 

[Matt L.]

...How sure can I be that EVERYTHING on this rock will be 100% gone.

Oh don't worry, it will be. Especially for two weeks.

...Will the bleach penetrate the rock to kill what's living on the inside as well (worms)?

Yes, if anything could find a way in, the bleach will find a way in as well.

...I was also thinking about soaking two weeks the way it's sitting now, then rotating the rock 180 degrees and soaking another two weeks just in case anything is surviving in a air pocket.

That will work too, although the bleach can volatilize and kill what is trapped in the air pocket as well.

...After the soak, I plan to let the rock bake in the sun for a couple weeks...

The sun is always a good way to get rid of bleach, because bleach is degradable in sunlight (hence the reason it comes in an opaque bottle at the store).

...After the bake, I'll throw it all in FW and circulate the water for another week to make sure all the bleach is gone....

If you can leave that freshwater out in the direct sunlight as well, that would be best.

Another option here is to get a large pot, and bring some RO/DI water to boiling. Then, boil the live rock for several minutes. This will also kill absolutely everything inside and out. Once the inside of the rock reaches the temperature of the boiling water, nothing, not even the bacteria, will really survive.

Matt

 

[stevenp]

If you can leave that freshwater out in the direct sunlight as well, that would be best.

Matt,
Would this create an algae bloom sitting out in the sun?

I think I will go ahead and boil it too. I want to make sure everything is dead, plus the new house has a stone fireplace/ oven in the back yard. I could have 10 gallons boiling in no time... If I can't get it to a boil over the fire, I'll break out the turkey fryer and Vollrath pot I use for brewing. As you can tell, I'm dead set on making sure everything dies.

Steve

 

[dpnshnks]

I don't want to sound like a know-it-all, but boiling may kill off most bacteria, however it will not take care of all of the bacteria. Those that form spores will be resistant to boiling water, that is why hospitals and research labs use autoclaves that bring the temp up to 120 or so for at least 15-30 minutes for complete sterilization. I am just not sure if some of the mycoplasma species would be killed.

With that said, I'm not sure a few spores sitting around will make a difference. Matt is probably right, the stuff you don't want in the tank will be killed.

Eric

 

[stevenp]

Eric,
Water boils at 212F, so I assume you're talking 120C which would be 248F? I'm not familiar with how an autoclave works, which is why I'm asking.

I bet I could get it to 248F with the right amount of BTU's.

Steve

 

[penguinsix]

The water in an autoclave is around 255F, and that still doesn't kill everything. Prions, the smallest dissease causing microrganism, isn't killed in an autoclave. One such prion disease is mad cow disseas, so I don't think that would be a problem.

 

[stevenp]

One such prion disease is mad cow disseas, so I don't think that would be a problem.

Heh... I know I'm doing overkill here, but I just want to be safe.

Steve

 

[penguinsix]

I bet I could get it to 248F with the right amount of BTU's.

Water can't boil at any temp higher than 212F unless in an autoclave/pressure cooker where it is at 15 atms I believe.

Edit

*checks notes to be sure*

Well after checking my notes, water has to boil at 250F for at least 15 minutes to kill spores. An autoclave will boil the water at 256F with 15 lbs pressure.

 

[stevenp]

Josh,

Forgive my lack of knowledge in chemistry, but are you saying that the maximum temperature I can bring water to, without any high tech gadgets is 212F?

Steve

 

[penguinsix]

Josh,

Forgive my lack of knowledge in chemistry, but are you saying that the maximum temperature I can bring water to, without any high tech gadgets is 212F?

Steve

Yep.

[random fact]that is why if you fill a paper cup with water and put it over a fire the paper won't ignite, because the paper needs to be at a higher temp than the water can get to to ignite.[/random fact]

A pressure cooker can do it for you.

 

[nitrofish]

why not buy base rock?

 

[stevenp]

I already have a bunch of live rock that I'd like to use. Problem is that it has some stuff on it that I don't want.

Steve

 

[dpnshnks]

Sorry, I've gotten used to using centigrade when referring to lab/hospital work. The Earth would be in a great deal of trouble if water boiled at 120 F. Yes, autoclaves are high pressure to increase the boiling temperature.

Second, boiling water depends on several factors. The first is exemplified above, and that is pressure. Water here in Boston will actually boil at a slightly higher temperature than that in Denver due to less atmospheric pressure. Water will boil at room temperature if it is placed in a vacuum. That's why your blood would boil in space if you were exposed, it's not the temperature, it's the vacuum. The second factor that can affect boiling point is the amount of solutes dissolved in the water. So, for example, fresh water will boil at a lower water temperature than salt water. I would doubt if you could get enough solutes into the water to elevate the boiling point to 250F, though.

Finally, my statement about sterility after autoclaving is technically correct. Prions are small strings of misfolded protein that lead to a cascading effect by inducing cells to produce more of the misfolded protein. These proteins are not alive, hence can't be killed. Therefore, autoclaving does sterilize any type of bacteria we see here on the surface (if you wish to argue that it couldn't kill the bacteria found living on the ocean floor by volcanic thermal vents, then I would have to agree with you ). Remember, sterile doesn't mean contaminate free!

Okay, I'm done being a dork now. I figure I'm in med school, so I kind of have a liscence to be the biggest dork/nerd as I can possibly be!

Eric

 

[dpnshnks]

Correction, Boston has a higher atmospheric pressure than Denver, thus water boils at a higher temperature.

 

[nunofs]

After the bake, I'll throw it all in FW and circulate the water for another week to make sure all the bleach is gone.

You can also add some dechlorinator (something like Seachem's Prime, used to remove chorines from tap water) and that will neutralize the bleach.

Nuno

 

[Matt L.]

Forgive my lack of knowledge in chemistry, but are you saying that the maximum temperature I can bring water to, without any high tech gadgets is 212F?

Yep. There's no such thing as water(1) hotter than 212F

...I don't want to sound like a know-it-all, but boiling may kill off most bacteria, however it will not take care of all of the bacteria. Those that form spores will be resistant to boiling water,...

That's okay. I omitted that fact for simplicity. Remember, if bacteria remain alive in spores, that's beneficial to the new system. However, the stuff Steve wants to kill (macroscopic organisms such as red mites, flatworms, nuisance algae, Aiptasia sp., etc.) sure doesn't survive 212F, or anything even close to that, so that's a benefit of boiling. Also, to my knowledge, the bacteria involved in the nitrogen cycle are not capable of surviving conditions outside the mesophilic temperature range -- they are pretty fragile.

...if you wish to argue that it couldn't kill the bacteria found living on the ocean floor by volcanic thermal vents, then I would have to agree with you ). Remember, sterile doesn't mean contaminate free!

But those bacteria wouldn't survive on the surface -- they are obligate chemophilic, hyperthermophilic anaerobes (if I recall correctly). The cold temperatures of the surface would make them inactive and incapable of division, and if they are strict anaerobes, the oxygen would finish them off in short order.

Matt

1. Assume pure water

 

[dpnshnks]

Also, to my knowledge, the bacteria involved in the nitrogen cycle are not capable of surviving conditions outside the mesophilic temperature range -- they are pretty fragile. But those bacteria wouldn't survive on the surface -- they are obligate chemophilic, hyperthermophilic anaerobes (if I recall correctly). The cold temperatures of the surface would make them inactive and incapable of division, and if they are strict anaerobes, the oxygen would finish them off in short order.


Fair enough, Matt. Obligate anaerobes will die off in the presence of oxygen, but they could definitely tolerate the heat! I'm not sure if the oxygen content in an aquarium would be enough to kill them by itself, but you're definitely correct, the water temp under the 400 degrees their used to would be a bummer for them.

212 degrees for the boiling point of water isn't some magical number. It's the temperature water will boil at under 1 atmospheric pressure (760mmHG). Any time a high pressure front moves through and the barometer goes above 760mmHG, then the boiling point of water moves up slightly as well. We just never notice and probably wouldn't particuarly care if we did!

Eric

 

[G.T]

Why use bleach at all? live rock is very absorbant personally i would not use it. Why not just just leave out in the sun this will kill everything which is growing anyways! Plus this would be much much safer.

 

[marco67]

FWIW
An autoclave works on temperature and pressure. Pressure is probably more important because it allows a higher temp as well as killing certain bacteria etc that temp alone will not. Once water reaches boiling and starts making steam. The chamber begins to pressurize for medical purposes an autoclave runs at 273 degrees and 32 psi. Once all water in the chamber turns to steam temp and pressure will always be a constant. In other words steam at 273f in a sealed chamber will always be at 32psi no more no less ever.

 

[stevenp]

G.T.,
The reason for using bleach is that it actually disolves the organic matter, not just killing it and letting the nutrients get into your water.

Steve