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Poll on moderation of the BRS forum
- Thread starter Greg Hiller
- Start date
Chuck Spyropulos
Non-member
Mods
In my opinion, it is all censorship. When I had some "insults" slung at me for no reason whatsoever, by a BOD member in fact, I dealt with it in the thread directly. No one censored anything until a day later when the thread was edited to protect the BOD member from taking responsibility for what he said....and I did not expect anyone to "hold my hand". I would rather that the thread was not edited so that every member could see what had happened and form their own opinions. Anyone can say anything to me...I am still going to wake up tomorrow regardless (well, I hope I will wake up...getting older by the minute). Are people so pathetic that they can't speak up for themselves?
But you are correct, in the end, you can't please everyone. And that is the problem...no matter how many people are banned , including myself according to a BOD member, this issue will continue to surface.
Moe_K said:
In my opinion, it is all censorship. When I had some "insults" slung at me for no reason whatsoever, by a BOD member in fact, I dealt with it in the thread directly. No one censored anything until a day later when the thread was edited to protect the BOD member from taking responsibility for what he said....and I did not expect anyone to "hold my hand". I would rather that the thread was not edited so that every member could see what had happened and form their own opinions. Anyone can say anything to me...I am still going to wake up tomorrow regardless (well, I hope I will wake up...getting older by the minute). Are people so pathetic that they can't speak up for themselves?
But you are correct, in the end, you can't please everyone. And that is the problem...no matter how many people are banned , including myself according to a BOD member, this issue will continue to surface.
joefitz
Non-member
Moderation is a critical part of any forum's success. Members need to feel comfortable in order to participate and the need to balance that need against the concerns of censorship is an unfortunate reality.
Moderation does indeed place "power" in the hands of a very small community, but this is not arbitrarily done. The members elected a BOD and set of officers to conduct the management of this organization, and in so doing, given the power and authority to do so to those people. We have to trust that the people we voted to operate this organization will do what they feel is in the communities best interest and I think the vast majority of people have little doubt they are both a) doing their best and b) doing a very admirable job.
There is no place for personal attacks on this message board. We have seen and will continue to see inappropriate behavior from time to time -- that is an unfortunate reality of such a large and diverse group, especially in an online forum where it is so easy to misinterpret posts and where everything is a little less "personal". Any and all such attacks should, and will most likely be, "censored." They are simply not constructive, appropriate or welcome. The moderators do try to privately calm down people involved in such situations; however, our experience so far is that it rarely works -- people always seem to want the last word and the result is a long string of deleted posts often ending with a closed thread.
While that is unfortunate, it is still far better than having to wade through a bunch of tripe in an otherwise useful thread. Closing the thread is often the only way to stop the bleeding so to speak. It does not prevent the thread from being restarted, hopefully without the contentious attitudes.
I think also if you were to count all posts made to date and calculated the % of moderated, deleted, and closes posts/threads, you'd likely find that we are well into the upper-nineties in terms of % posts that do not require moderation. If anything, my opinion is that we haven't be proactive enough in moderating posts, although I definitely think we are all on the same page in terms of trying to minimize content changes (modifcations/deletions of posts) as well as closing threads. Those methods should be as a last resort.
Moderation is absolutely critical. It is an art rather than a science and while it is unfortunate that a few people are forced to find and manage that fine line, I don't believe there is any other choice.
I think the mods have done a fantastic job, especially considering that everything about our group is done on a volunteer basis.
Moderation does indeed place "power" in the hands of a very small community, but this is not arbitrarily done. The members elected a BOD and set of officers to conduct the management of this organization, and in so doing, given the power and authority to do so to those people. We have to trust that the people we voted to operate this organization will do what they feel is in the communities best interest and I think the vast majority of people have little doubt they are both a) doing their best and b) doing a very admirable job.
There is no place for personal attacks on this message board. We have seen and will continue to see inappropriate behavior from time to time -- that is an unfortunate reality of such a large and diverse group, especially in an online forum where it is so easy to misinterpret posts and where everything is a little less "personal". Any and all such attacks should, and will most likely be, "censored." They are simply not constructive, appropriate or welcome. The moderators do try to privately calm down people involved in such situations; however, our experience so far is that it rarely works -- people always seem to want the last word and the result is a long string of deleted posts often ending with a closed thread.
While that is unfortunate, it is still far better than having to wade through a bunch of tripe in an otherwise useful thread. Closing the thread is often the only way to stop the bleeding so to speak. It does not prevent the thread from being restarted, hopefully without the contentious attitudes.
I think also if you were to count all posts made to date and calculated the % of moderated, deleted, and closes posts/threads, you'd likely find that we are well into the upper-nineties in terms of % posts that do not require moderation. If anything, my opinion is that we haven't be proactive enough in moderating posts, although I definitely think we are all on the same page in terms of trying to minimize content changes (modifcations/deletions of posts) as well as closing threads. Those methods should be as a last resort.
Moderation is absolutely critical. It is an art rather than a science and while it is unfortunate that a few people are forced to find and manage that fine line, I don't believe there is any other choice.
I think the mods have done a fantastic job, especially considering that everything about our group is done on a volunteer basis.
joefitz
Non-member
I do appreciate your comment Chuck, that the moderation is not wholly consistent at this point. All I can say with respect to that is that I do not believe it has anything to do with who is being addressed/discussed in posts. I believe it has more to do with the fact that the moderators simply don't always have the time to act, nor are all situations as clearly in need of moderation.
In terms of your preference for just leaving everything out in the open, I for one, am happy we have not gone that course. I am always annoyed when I'm reading a thread hoping to find useful information only to have it become a shouting match between a small handful of people. I, and I'm sure every other poster not involved in the conflict, would prefer those posts simply be edited or removed so the constructive thread can continue.
Lastly, when posts are brought to the attention of moderators I can assure you they are reviewed as soon as they can be and are handled in the same manner regardless of whom the posts were posted by/directed towards.
In terms of your preference for just leaving everything out in the open, I for one, am happy we have not gone that course. I am always annoyed when I'm reading a thread hoping to find useful information only to have it become a shouting match between a small handful of people. I, and I'm sure every other poster not involved in the conflict, would prefer those posts simply be edited or removed so the constructive thread can continue.
Lastly, when posts are brought to the attention of moderators I can assure you they are reviewed as soon as they can be and are handled in the same manner regardless of whom the posts were posted by/directed towards.
objectfire
PatternMaster
<soapbox>
I agree 100% with Joe that there is no place on the forums for personal insults.
There have been discussions on the board lately that would have made me walk away and never look back, if they had ever occurred in person. Life is too short to waste time arguing endlessly off topic or to construe a person's quickly posted comment as the epitome of their character flaws or to otherwise assign intent where there is none.
If you have a problem with someone's post, then send them a PM or post a message where you restate how you perceived the message, and ask them to confirm if that is what they meant. 90% of the time this will diffuse a situation. The nice thing about the forums is that there will always be time for you to have your say. Most likely, a moderator will clean up any extreme post before you will see it, unless you get in a rapid-fire exchange with someone -- the net is bad for that type of exchange, except in chat mode.
If your self-esteem is so low that you feel that someone's forum insult will destroy your reputation, then that should be a sign that the insult volley should be taken off the forums immediately, with the person(s) in question and a moderator, in my opinion.
Note: An official chat forum would be awesome, people! If everyone could agree to use a common messaging platform for the club (YAHOO, AOL IM, etc.), it would be great to see a list of people signed on and available on the bottom of the forums page or something. Would probably make for some good socializing and the negating of many misunderstandings.
Transparency is needed almost always, but transparency and censorship are two different animals, and should not be confused. Moderation on the net is usually a consensual form of censorship adopted by a group to maintain focus within discussion.
I am happy that our moderation as censorship is after the fact, otherwise the forums would be no better than a moderated email list. I am also happy with the efforts of those moderators who have attempted to mediate proactively in the threads, prior to censorship.
When censorship is required, as long as it is clearly indicated and noted with an explanation, I have no problems with it within these forums.
Thanks to our societal limits on free speech these days, there are many types of info that could easily land the club in hot water legally, if it was not censored. This forum is not the place to take on the free speech issue, in my opinion. Take the fight to those who censor free speech, not consensually moderated speech.
If someone finds that they cannot reach an understanding with the moderators, then it would be best for them to leave. Start your own forums and make them censorship free. You will quickly discover how quickly that they will degenerate into useless crud with a few obnoxious loudmouths ruining the forums for everyone. I've seen this happen on the net since before it was the net so many many times.
Kent
</soapbox>
I agree 100% with Joe that there is no place on the forums for personal insults.
There have been discussions on the board lately that would have made me walk away and never look back, if they had ever occurred in person. Life is too short to waste time arguing endlessly off topic or to construe a person's quickly posted comment as the epitome of their character flaws or to otherwise assign intent where there is none.
If you have a problem with someone's post, then send them a PM or post a message where you restate how you perceived the message, and ask them to confirm if that is what they meant. 90% of the time this will diffuse a situation. The nice thing about the forums is that there will always be time for you to have your say. Most likely, a moderator will clean up any extreme post before you will see it, unless you get in a rapid-fire exchange with someone -- the net is bad for that type of exchange, except in chat mode.
If your self-esteem is so low that you feel that someone's forum insult will destroy your reputation, then that should be a sign that the insult volley should be taken off the forums immediately, with the person(s) in question and a moderator, in my opinion.
Note: An official chat forum would be awesome, people! If everyone could agree to use a common messaging platform for the club (YAHOO, AOL IM, etc.), it would be great to see a list of people signed on and available on the bottom of the forums page or something. Would probably make for some good socializing and the negating of many misunderstandings.
Transparency is needed almost always, but transparency and censorship are two different animals, and should not be confused. Moderation on the net is usually a consensual form of censorship adopted by a group to maintain focus within discussion.
I am happy that our moderation as censorship is after the fact, otherwise the forums would be no better than a moderated email list. I am also happy with the efforts of those moderators who have attempted to mediate proactively in the threads, prior to censorship.
When censorship is required, as long as it is clearly indicated and noted with an explanation, I have no problems with it within these forums.
Thanks to our societal limits on free speech these days, there are many types of info that could easily land the club in hot water legally, if it was not censored. This forum is not the place to take on the free speech issue, in my opinion. Take the fight to those who censor free speech, not consensually moderated speech.
If someone finds that they cannot reach an understanding with the moderators, then it would be best for them to leave. Start your own forums and make them censorship free. You will quickly discover how quickly that they will degenerate into useless crud with a few obnoxious loudmouths ruining the forums for everyone. I've seen this happen on the net since before it was the net so many many times.
Kent
</soapbox>
karl wagner
salinate me!
There wasn't a day that went by when I didn't want to fire JoeFitz, just to shake things up a little.
jackie
Non-member
There are so many diverse personalities people are bound to lock horns, especially when communicating in a forum as opposed to talking with someone face to face, words can be taken the wrong way. I've sometimes been guilty myself by using short, abrupt replies that make it sound like I'm being rude but it's not intentional (guess I'm too used to the 'office structure' of email replying!).
Anyway people, don't sweat the small stuff or I'll use my famous five-finger death grip (well, it worked for my son when my hand USED to fit around his arm)
I think you are all doing a great job in moderating the forum!!
Anyway people, don't sweat the small stuff or I'll use my famous five-finger death grip (well, it worked for my son when my hand USED to fit around his arm)
I think you are all doing a great job in moderating the forum!!
OP
OP
The comments that Chuck was refering to were from me. I made a post, then realized it was a mistake, coming off too high and mighty. I edited the post immediately before seeing anyones reaction to the post...looks like my two posts were 12 minutes apart.
Here is the insulting post I made, this BTW was before I was a moderator. I was able to edit the post becuase I was within the time limit for editing posts, it is unfortunate that Chuck saw it:
>I'm guessing I took heat transfer more recently that you did, but I might be wrong. You have a ME degree right? Do you take heat transfer in that program? Anyhow...I digress..... <
Here is the insulting post I made, this BTW was before I was a moderator. I was able to edit the post becuase I was within the time limit for editing posts, it is unfortunate that Chuck saw it:
>I'm guessing I took heat transfer more recently that you did, but I might be wrong. You have a ME degree right? Do you take heat transfer in that program? Anyhow...I digress..... <
OP
OP
>No one censored anything until a day later when the thread was edited to protect the BOD member from taking responsibility for what he said<
As I said above, the post was edited by myself immediately after making the post, I made a mistake. All the 'details' of the post, etc. can be seen in the original thread below. No moderators were involved.
http://216.235.242.50/forums/showthread.php?t=3249
Post #80
As I said above, the post was edited by myself immediately after making the post, I made a mistake. All the 'details' of the post, etc. can be seen in the original thread below. No moderators were involved.
http://216.235.242.50/forums/showthread.php?t=3249
Post #80
Armando
v 4.0
Although being a moderator on this forum seemed interesting in the beginning, these days it seems more like an unenviable job...
Since these guys are not being paid and need to spend a lot of their time to moderate the forums, I don't feel comfortable evaluating their work.
That said, sometimes I feel that it could be a little more restrictive. For example, I still see people posting stuff for sale without price. I can live with it but I reserve the right to post my stuff for sale without price if I need to.
Since these guys are not being paid and need to spend a lot of their time to moderate the forums, I don't feel comfortable evaluating their work.
That said, sometimes I feel that it could be a little more restrictive. For example, I still see people posting stuff for sale without price. I can live with it but I reserve the right to post my stuff for sale without price if I need to.
OP
OP
I think we have 'relaxed' a bit the posting of prices requirement. IMO there are reasons to ask for it, and reasons not to. If you see things that you think are a problem, PM a moderator and we can take care of it, though....not necessarily instantly!!
OP
OP
I think we have 'relaxed' a bit the posting of prices requirement. IMO there are reasons to ask for it, and reasons not to. If you see things that you think are a problem, PM a moderator and we can take care of it, though....not necessarily instantly!!
Scuba_Dave
Non-member
Refresh &/OR going back in navigation will do it every time.
I think a recent thread in For Sale area proves moderation & locking of threads is much needed & is fair.
I was not so surpised to see a disagreement/argument
I WAS surpised the thread was not locked yesterday
I WAS NOT surpised to see it had to be locked today
I think a recent thread in For Sale area proves moderation & locking of threads is much needed & is fair.
I was not so surpised to see a disagreement/argument
I WAS surpised the thread was not locked yesterday
I WAS NOT surpised to see it had to be locked today
Scuba_Dave
Non-member
Armando said:
There is NO issue. Anyone can sell or give away to anyone they want at anytime regardless of "I claim this" being posted or PM'd. If he ran up there to get the rock & he is selling other rock, well that is up to the person selling it/giving it away. Breaking down a tank is painful, and I don't blame people for not wanting to go thru the hassle (of waiting for people to show up) & simply unloading everything they can
And as I've stated on this site & Reef Central before....don't ever send me anything in a PM/E-mail that you don't want posted (not that anyone actuallly has)
There is no such thing as a "Personal/Private Message". Once it is in writing/E-mail it is considered "public" and can be sent or shared with other people (and THEY ARE believe me). NEVER put anything in an E-mail or other means of electronic commmunication that you do not want other people to see. This is a RULE to LIVE by!!!
There is no binding agreement (this was discussed on RC) to keep that communication private
I'm not sure which issue you were referring to.....giving the rock away...or posting the PM.
As a group, if we see certain people pu free stuff, then selling it, I know I would refrain from giving that person anything for free.Maybe others would do the same
I pu a 55g tank & stand for free from one member...and later (6-12 months?) sold it all as an entire package (less then what I paid for everything)
I don't see a problem with a seller giving away or selling to whomever he/she prefers given their circumstances atthe time. It's THEIR decision, no-one has the right to question it. But they do have the ability
I gave away 5 computers, if the 1st person to show up had said, I'll take all 5, that may have just happened if I needed them out ASAP.
arrrrrrrr....right
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