-
******* To read about the changes to the marketplace click here
refugium and protein skimmer
- Thread starter jimmichal
- Start date
nicks387
Non-member
I used to say no way and I have a huge skimmer on my tank and I use Zeovit but my friend Greg from underwaterworld in the galleria mall has no skimmer in his 300 + gallon tank and the growth I see in his frags is unbelievable. I see a few ORA frags for example and the next week I stop by and they are much bigger then before (same frags) and its like that with everything in the tank. He has better growth than my tank and I think I have good growth. I have a 300 gallon Zeo tank with a Hurricone cat 2 external skimmer, my nitrates are 0 my phosphates are 0. Calcium 430 Alk 8.5 mag 1300. He has a 300 gallon tank with a large fuge. My lights are 400w halides x 3 his are 250w halides x 3 I cant believe what I am seeing. I know there are lots of other variables but I am realy thinking it may be the skimmer. He gets better growth, I am now gonna set up a frag tank with no skimmer just a Fuge and I am gonna place the same type and size frags in this tank and in my frag tank thats online with my 300gal skimmed tank with the same lighting and flow and see which frags grow quicker....stay tuned.
Joel A
Started over.
this debate always comes up... and i always get fired up about it... bottom line is that a skimmer HELPS a tank. Unless you plan on doing the best you possibly can at reef husbandry, run a skimmer.
There's a reason every fish tank you see and go "wow, that's what i want" runs a skimmer....
running a skimmer is not hard, or a pain in any way... after initial set-up all you have to do is remove the collection cup every now and then, and clean it. Takes less than 5 minutes for me...
There's a reason every fish tank you see and go "wow, that's what i want" runs a skimmer....
running a skimmer is not hard, or a pain in any way... after initial set-up all you have to do is remove the collection cup every now and then, and clean it. Takes less than 5 minutes for me...
Joel A
Started over.
i haven't been to under water world in a while... but all the times i have been in the past i haven't been very impressed to be honest... maybe they've turned things around, and maybe he does get better growth than you... but i'd bet everything i own on the fact that he's not getting better growth because he's not running a skimmer...
nicks387
Non-member
Well, he has changed everything around and sells lots of SPS now and although I agree for the most part with what you say and I have an $800 dollar skimmer on my tank and I have years of experience in the hobby so I am no hack but I have also seen tanks without a skimmer that made me say wow, maybe you have not. Have you ever ran a tank without one to speak from experience or just your opinion. Also why would you "get all fired up about someone asking about a skimmer"?
nicks387
Non-member
Back when nobody had fuges a skimmer was a definate must but now I am not so sure, if a tank without a skimmer is getting zero nitrates and zero phosphates and good growth and color and is well oxygenated then why would it need a skimmer?
I am not recomending people get rid of skimmers and the question was not does a skimmer help but rather is a skimmer a must.
I am not recomending people get rid of skimmers and the question was not does a skimmer help but rather is a skimmer a must.
I don't need proof that you don't need a skimmer, I don't use one on my 90g tank. Here's a good article...
By Tony Griffitts
Protein skimmers have been around a long time and within the last decade or so, manufacturers have made great improvements in their efficiency. A good protein skimmer can cost several hundred dollars with a pump. Today there are a growing number of reef keepers that are very successful running their reef tanks without one. We need to question why these tanks are doing so well.
I have run many marine fish only and reef aquariums with and without protein skimmers for many years. To this day I can not say that there is a noticeable benefit running a protein skimmer. I ran a protein skimmer for many years on a fish only system and then I took it off the system. The system was ran for years without a protein skimmer and there was no noticeable affect on fish health. I have also set up many reef systems without protein skimmers, and had excellent results with small polyp stony (SPS) corals growing very well, and several species of marine fish spawning. Some reef system setups had undetectable nitrate levels after being set up for years.
Why are these systems doing so well? In reef systems, you only need to look at the macro and mirco-creature inhabitants. Many of these creatures are filter feeders that process the same proteins that protein skimmers remove from the system. When a deep sand bed (DSB) is used in the system it can be heavily colonized by these filter feeders that help with water exchange through the sand bed. The slow exchange of water through the sand bed in turn helps greatly with natural nitrate reduction (NNR). This can help explain why some reef tanks without protein skimmers have undetectable nitrate readings. When you run a protein skimmer on a reef tank you are essentially removing a food source for these creatures, there by effecting the population the system can support. Many marine hobbyist that set up their system from the beginning with protein skimmers often notice a substantial decrease in the amount of foam they collect after the system has been set up for several months. Many of them begin to think that their protein skimmer is not working as well anymore, even though the flow rate and bubble production looks the same. This can be attributed to the fact that filter feeders have started to heavily colonize the system and are now competing with the protein skimmer for proteins.
Filter feeders that live in a deep sand bed take up proteins as a food source, and as an added benefit they help with natural nitrate reduction.
In systems where there is no DSB or fish and/or invertebrates that would feed upon the filter feeders that live in the sand bed, a protein skimmer will probably have some benefit on water quality, as far as oxygen caring capacity and nitrate/phosphate accumulation. These benefits can also be realized with large regular water changes.
Protein skimmers on live rock curing tanks are still a great benefit, as the process of curing live rock kills many filter feeding organisms. When there are no filter feeding organisms the best way to remove proteins is with a protein skimmer.
The theory behind running a protein skimmer on a marine aquarium sounds good, but in reality its impact on well established marine aquarium appears to be minimal. Real independent research needs to be done to validate the value of running a protein skimmer on a marine system. With all the examples of marine aquariums that are doing exceptionally well without protein skimmers, I am finding it harder and harder to justify the expense for all marine aquariums.
061021
Cover
Editor's Note
Latest Articles
Article Index
Ask Aquaworld
Q & A
Local Fish Clubs
Event Calendar
Author Bio's
Email Update
Advertise
Contact
AA Banner Ads
Copyright©1997-2009 Aquaworld Aquarium
By Tony Griffitts
Protein skimmers have been around a long time and within the last decade or so, manufacturers have made great improvements in their efficiency. A good protein skimmer can cost several hundred dollars with a pump. Today there are a growing number of reef keepers that are very successful running their reef tanks without one. We need to question why these tanks are doing so well.
I have run many marine fish only and reef aquariums with and without protein skimmers for many years. To this day I can not say that there is a noticeable benefit running a protein skimmer. I ran a protein skimmer for many years on a fish only system and then I took it off the system. The system was ran for years without a protein skimmer and there was no noticeable affect on fish health. I have also set up many reef systems without protein skimmers, and had excellent results with small polyp stony (SPS) corals growing very well, and several species of marine fish spawning. Some reef system setups had undetectable nitrate levels after being set up for years.
Why are these systems doing so well? In reef systems, you only need to look at the macro and mirco-creature inhabitants. Many of these creatures are filter feeders that process the same proteins that protein skimmers remove from the system. When a deep sand bed (DSB) is used in the system it can be heavily colonized by these filter feeders that help with water exchange through the sand bed. The slow exchange of water through the sand bed in turn helps greatly with natural nitrate reduction (NNR). This can help explain why some reef tanks without protein skimmers have undetectable nitrate readings. When you run a protein skimmer on a reef tank you are essentially removing a food source for these creatures, there by effecting the population the system can support. Many marine hobbyist that set up their system from the beginning with protein skimmers often notice a substantial decrease in the amount of foam they collect after the system has been set up for several months. Many of them begin to think that their protein skimmer is not working as well anymore, even though the flow rate and bubble production looks the same. This can be attributed to the fact that filter feeders have started to heavily colonize the system and are now competing with the protein skimmer for proteins.
Filter feeders that live in a deep sand bed take up proteins as a food source, and as an added benefit they help with natural nitrate reduction.
In systems where there is no DSB or fish and/or invertebrates that would feed upon the filter feeders that live in the sand bed, a protein skimmer will probably have some benefit on water quality, as far as oxygen caring capacity and nitrate/phosphate accumulation. These benefits can also be realized with large regular water changes.
Protein skimmers on live rock curing tanks are still a great benefit, as the process of curing live rock kills many filter feeding organisms. When there are no filter feeding organisms the best way to remove proteins is with a protein skimmer.
The theory behind running a protein skimmer on a marine aquarium sounds good, but in reality its impact on well established marine aquarium appears to be minimal. Real independent research needs to be done to validate the value of running a protein skimmer on a marine system. With all the examples of marine aquariums that are doing exceptionally well without protein skimmers, I am finding it harder and harder to justify the expense for all marine aquariums.
061021
Cover
Editor's Note
Latest Articles
Article Index
Ask Aquaworld
Q & A
Local Fish Clubs
Event Calendar
Author Bio's
Email Update
Advertise
Contact
AA Banner Ads
Copyright©1997-2009 Aquaworld Aquarium
nicks387
Non-member
Good article. Like I said I have a great skimmer but have witnessed nice tanks without one, and not being even open to the idea of a skimmerless system is just stuborn. Some tanks need them, they may have large bio loads with lots of big fish etc.. on the flip side other systems with low nitrates and phosphates can do fine or better without them. I have a heavy bio load so I would not go skimmer less but I know for sure it can be done.
Joel A
Started over.
prove that your tank is better off without a skimmer... let's see some pictures. I've noticed that you almost always reference your thoughts with an article... that's great and all, but let's see the results.. ???
Here's a challenge for you, find me some hobbyist tanks running no skimmers and SPS corals, and i'll find you hobbyist's tanks that are running skimmers... we'll see which tanks come out nicer looking, ok?
Nick- I know what you're getting at... but i'm skeptical of a few things... i'm skeptical that 0 phosphate and nitrates can be achieved without a protein skimmer, and i'm also skeptical of anyone that says that they do achieve 0 nitrates and phosphates without a protein skimmer... what are they using for tests? Liquid nitrate and phosphate tests? Give me a break...
Look guys-- i'm not saying it's impossible to pull off... because it's not... if you want to do tons of water changes, be my guest... you might even have success with it.. but would i ever recommend anyone set-up a tank without a skimmer, or get rid of a skimmer? No, absolutely not.
nicks387
Non-member
I wouldn't recommend it either Joel and like I said I have a nasty skimmer for just that reason I was just saying if you have experience and time to do the extra work involved like water changes and have a light, light bio load and a huge fuge I think you would see positive results, a light fish load on a large tank with a DSB and a big Fuge can get 0 readings just by having a DSB and high flow and a fuge with lots of macro, do many people have systems like this? No, we keep lots of animals, fish, inverts etc that produce a lot of waste, but for a frag tank I think it may actually be of benefit because the corals dont produce much waste and the tank will have lots of good nutrients to maximize the growth and color of the corals, if the tank doesn't produce much waste then all that would be available to skim is the good nutrients that corals take in as food. This is why the tank I mentioned above has good growth, its 300 gallons with a 120 gallon fuge and like 3 fish in it. The corals thrive Joel I have seen it with my own eyes. Would I want a tank like that? No, but it did get my attention as far as a grow out system is concerned.
Joel A
Started over.
I could see a large system with a minuscule bio load and great husbandry doing well without a skimmer... i hear you on that one. And like you said, would i want a tank like that no.. i don't think many people would..
but that's not what where talking about here... we're talking about telling a brand new reefer that you don't need a protein skimmer as long as he has a fuge. Great advice...
but that's not what where talking about here... we're talking about telling a brand new reefer that you don't need a protein skimmer as long as he has a fuge. Great advice...
