Anyone out here never do water changes?
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Cheddah93
Well known member
Quite a few people actually. Look into the reef moonshiners method. Basically Involves sending out monthly icp tests and dosing trace elements accordingly to maintain levels.
Seen quite a few successful acropora tanks doing such with some good colors which has lead me down the road looking into it as I was already halfway there dosing Red Sea trace program to maintain trace levels, and have been doing monthly water changes for the sake of doing one but haven’t needed them . I’ve have good colors and good growth from my tank thus far and it’s predominantly acro mixed reef tank.
@BiGGiePauls33 runs that method and has had good success from the looks I’ve seen.
Seen quite a few successful acropora tanks doing such with some good colors which has lead me down the road looking into it as I was already halfway there dosing Red Sea trace program to maintain trace levels, and have been doing monthly water changes for the sake of doing one but haven’t needed them . I’ve have good colors and good growth from my tank thus far and it’s predominantly acro mixed reef tank.
@BiGGiePauls33 runs that method and has had good success from the looks I’ve seen.
Chlorinated
Non-member
I'm down to about once monthly 15%. I could probably go longer if I wanted. Very mature.. 7+ year 20 gallon. Filled with coral and low bioload...2 clowns.
Have to dose nutrients to keep them above 0, and the big 3 plus trace handled by AFR. Maturity is key though. I would not attempt on a new tank.
Have to dose nutrients to keep them above 0, and the big 3 plus trace handled by AFR. Maturity is key though. I would not attempt on a new tank.
dz6t
Acro Garden, BRS Sponsor
It depends on what coral you are keeping.
I know a guy that did not do water change for 2 years. Not his preference but he was super busy. After 2 years, he got a tank full of leather and xenia. All sps and lps were gone.
Then there used to be a guy on reefcentral that claimed he never did water change and he had a tank full of sps. It turned out that he flushed his sand filters on a schedule and that took out large amount of his tank water, but he did not consider that as water change.
I know a guy who claimed he never did water change and pushing dosing all sorts of elements. In reality, he did regular water change but got incentives from some retailer to post his “method” online.
There was a guy back then on reef central that claimed he never did water change and he claimed he had good growth on acro. The 2 years growth of his green slimer was about the same as several months of regular growth in many people’s tank.
Selling salt online with free shipping is a money losing business, selling additives is a big profit business.
I know a guy that did not do water change for 2 years. Not his preference but he was super busy. After 2 years, he got a tank full of leather and xenia. All sps and lps were gone.
Then there used to be a guy on reefcentral that claimed he never did water change and he had a tank full of sps. It turned out that he flushed his sand filters on a schedule and that took out large amount of his tank water, but he did not consider that as water change.
I know a guy who claimed he never did water change and pushing dosing all sorts of elements. In reality, he did regular water change but got incentives from some retailer to post his “method” online.
There was a guy back then on reef central that claimed he never did water change and he claimed he had good growth on acro. The 2 years growth of his green slimer was about the same as several months of regular growth in many people’s tank.
Selling salt online with free shipping is a money losing business, selling additives is a big profit business.
BiGGiePauls33
Current BRS President
@Chris A. and myself run reef moonshiners. Chris' tank is flourishing with growth and coloration, mine not so much. I did nuke my corals with a stupid error, I spiked my salinity through the roof so to speak and that was a costly learning experience. I just completed my water correction and am looking forward to filling it back up with the acro's that I lost. My LPS look great and continue to grow nicely.
Take a look https://bostonreefers.org/forums/index.php?threads/biggies-build.169888/post-1469527
Take a look https://bostonreefers.org/forums/index.php?threads/biggies-build.169888/post-1469527
Those torches look great! Would you say they grow as quickly in your tank as those that do frequent water changes?
BiGGiePauls33
Current BRS President
Not sure. I haven't changed any water in over a year and didn't have those corals.
Chris A.
Formally toomanyfish
ReefAddict
Well-Known Member
Dong nailed it again. I see a lot of people proudly state how they do no water changes. I've never seen a long-term tank that is "WOW" that does zero water changes and full of SPS / LPS. Short Term ok.
I suppose it can be done (Reef Moonshiners) but it can be done much easier with a monthly water change IMO.
I think a lot of people who search out the zero-water change option are looking to ease their maintenance efforts. I think all they end up finding is the opposite in more effort needed and / or an unhealthy reef tank in the long run.
I suppose it can be done (Reef Moonshiners) but it can be done much easier with a monthly water change IMO.
I think a lot of people who search out the zero-water change option are looking to ease their maintenance efforts. I think all they end up finding is the opposite in more effort needed and / or an unhealthy reef tank in the long run.
dz6t
Acro Garden, BRS Sponsor
If hobby grade ICP is as accurate as they stated, the “back-yard-liquor” method can be done in long term.
Even then, it is much more expensive and time consuming than just change water. An ICP-test is about $45 to $50, plus the money to buy those additives. At the same time, a bucket of 160 gallon ReefCrystal is $39.99.
If you like to follow the “back-yard-liquor” method, you can buy those chemicals dirt cheap online and mix your own. Those $19.99 a bottle of elements will cost you about $1 each, which 75 cents is the cost of the bottle.
But plenty of these element dosings are not necessary, by bi-weekly 15% water change or monthly 30% water change, the needed trace elements level will be fine. Also many trace elements in the sea water do nothing at all to coral or fish, then some of them will become toxic if overdosed.
With or without water change, keeping Alk and Calcium up with dosing still needed.
Even then, it is much more expensive and time consuming than just change water. An ICP-test is about $45 to $50, plus the money to buy those additives. At the same time, a bucket of 160 gallon ReefCrystal is $39.99.
If you like to follow the “back-yard-liquor” method, you can buy those chemicals dirt cheap online and mix your own. Those $19.99 a bottle of elements will cost you about $1 each, which 75 cents is the cost of the bottle.
But plenty of these element dosings are not necessary, by bi-weekly 15% water change or monthly 30% water change, the needed trace elements level will be fine. Also many trace elements in the sea water do nothing at all to coral or fish, then some of them will become toxic if overdosed.
With or without water change, keeping Alk and Calcium up with dosing still needed.
dz6t
Acro Garden, BRS Sponsor
Water change serves an very important function that it removes chemicals from the tank water.
Activated carbon is an excellent choice to do that but in saltwater environment, activated carbon gets saturated quickly. Also it selectively take out chemicals based on size, greasiness etc. If you change activated carbon weekly, you can have longer gaps between water change. Some brands of activated carbon advertise that they can last for months, but that is not true in saltwater. Also the cost adds up quick. IMO, activated carbon is necessary but it can’t totally replace water change.
Activated carbon is an excellent choice to do that but in saltwater environment, activated carbon gets saturated quickly. Also it selectively take out chemicals based on size, greasiness etc. If you change activated carbon weekly, you can have longer gaps between water change. Some brands of activated carbon advertise that they can last for months, but that is not true in saltwater. Also the cost adds up quick. IMO, activated carbon is necessary but it can’t totally replace water change.
BiGGiePauls33
Current BRS President
Not to confuse someone on the no water changes vs water changes, Reef Moonshiners from what I understand is more about coloration with elevated trace elements. Although it is recommended to not do water changes, Andre Mueller that happens to be the brains behind Moonshiners' states that you can do water changes if you like. @robbous has been on this method for I believe what I've read for about 6 years. Mike Paletta (sp?) Also runs this method but does do some amount of water changes. There's quite a few big named people in the industry that run this.
dz6t
Acro Garden, BRS Sponsor
A FAQ of water change is that if you only change 20% of water, only 20% of chemicals are taken out.
That is very true but we need to look at how chemicals affect coral.
First, undesirable chemicals are coming from coral which released them in the water to suppress other coral growth; impurities from additives/food etc.
Second, a toxic chemical only affects a coral when certain concentration is reached. For example, mercury is frequently present in frozen fish food, accumulation of it can cause issues.
Hypothetically, element A will affect coral health when its concentration reach 1 ppm. Assuming it reach 1 ppm and affecting a coral’s growth rate, with 20% water change, the concentration drops to 0.8 ppm. Now element A is no longer has an impact on the coral despite 80% of it still in the water.
Hope this helps
That is very true but we need to look at how chemicals affect coral.
First, undesirable chemicals are coming from coral which released them in the water to suppress other coral growth; impurities from additives/food etc.
Second, a toxic chemical only affects a coral when certain concentration is reached. For example, mercury is frequently present in frozen fish food, accumulation of it can cause issues.
Hypothetically, element A will affect coral health when its concentration reach 1 ppm. Assuming it reach 1 ppm and affecting a coral’s growth rate, with 20% water change, the concentration drops to 0.8 ppm. Now element A is no longer has an impact on the coral despite 80% of it still in the water.
Hope this helps
dz6t
Acro Garden, BRS Sponsor
To be fair, “back yard liquor” method is Triton method.
The difference is that Triton method doses a group of trace elements together.
Trace elements do not only have a positive effect on your reef inhabitants. If their concentration is too high, they can cause great damage. This effect is generally referred to as the dualistic character of trace elements. If their concentration is too low, there are negative effects, and if their concentration is too high, there are also negative effects. The optimal ranges can be achieved by regular water changes. Shoot low is a lot safer that over dose.
The difference is that Triton method doses a group of trace elements together.
Trace elements do not only have a positive effect on your reef inhabitants. If their concentration is too high, they can cause great damage. This effect is generally referred to as the dualistic character of trace elements. If their concentration is too low, there are negative effects, and if their concentration is too high, there are also negative effects. The optimal ranges can be achieved by regular water changes. Shoot low is a lot safer that over dose.
dz6t
Acro Garden, BRS Sponsor
Scientific studies dealing with trace elements showed that the sole addition of inorganic trace element compounds had no effect on the concentration of the added elements in the blood or tissues of the animals.
There is an issue associate trace elements dosing with calcium and carbonate consumption, as stony coral not only deposits calcium skeleton, it also grows tissues. The amount and types of trace elements in coral tissues are greatly different from in its skeleton.
On a side note, symbiont algae can only absorb trace elements in the presence of certain nutrients (ammonium, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate). In a ultra low nutrient system, dosing trace elements can be an challenge.
There is an issue associate trace elements dosing with calcium and carbonate consumption, as stony coral not only deposits calcium skeleton, it also grows tissues. The amount and types of trace elements in coral tissues are greatly different from in its skeleton.
On a side note, symbiont algae can only absorb trace elements in the presence of certain nutrients (ammonium, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate). In a ultra low nutrient system, dosing trace elements can be an challenge.
chadfish
Well-Known Member
If you read Randy Holmes Farley’s DIY two part method, he calculates the buildup of sulfur in the water over time. The only way to maintain low concentrations is by periodic water changes.
I assume this is true for more than just sulpher compounds.
edit:words
I assume this is true for more than just sulpher compounds.
edit:words
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BiGGiePauls33
Current BRS President
Curious as to the time frame. Also, if I read that two part method correctly, in which I believe it did, it states that using the original recipe for 2 part, then sulfate may build up over time, but no real concrete evidence that it absolutely does.
I have a year of results from ATI ICP and can say that sulfur has actually dropped minimally since starting no water changes. The only thing that has really increased at all is NO3 as my fish are fat like me, lol.
