breaker tripping during the night
- Thread starter nunofs
- Start date
gordonzoo
Non-member
On the wire insulation of the wire it should say 12 awg or 14 awg. If it doesn?t you will have to measure the dia. Of the actual copper wire. You can look this up on the Internet on what it should be. This would take micrometers or calipers to measure. And always be careful and to respect the voltage, as it will bite. It's best to always turn off the main when opening the panel box especially doing this.
Rich
Rich
NateHanson
Non-member
Nuno, your house is new enough that the outer jacket insulation on the cable will probably be yellow if it's 12ga, and white if it's 14ga. It will also be printed on the jacket of the cable ("14/3 AWG" for example). The tricky thing is that the cable jacket is stripped off inside the panel, and inside the electrical box behind your tank. Try turning off the main breaker (at the top) and unscrewing the 4 screws that hold the front of the box, and then looking inside, follow the black wire from your problem breaker to the point where it exits the box. There should be an inch or so of outer jacket left on the cable where it exits the box. If it's yellow it's 12 ga and you can use a 20A breaker (assuming all other wiring on that circuit is also 12ga - possibly a dangerous assumption). If it's white you'll have to see if your lucky enough to have the inch of jacket that has the AWG printed on it.
If that doesn't work, just have someone who has experience with this (or an electrician) take a look in your elec panel. They'll be able to say if it's 12 or 14 at a glance.
I'd recommend that you not do this project yourself as it sounds like you haven't done much wiring. Either get a friend to show you how (it's not very hard), or hire an electrician. I'd guess that installing two shorty-breakers, and running a dedicated 20A circuit up to the tank would be in the ballpark of $300-400, but making guesses like that can be dangerous, so who knows.
You might need to do some drywall repair in the family room above the electrical box when he's done with the wiring.
If that doesn't work, just have someone who has experience with this (or an electrician) take a look in your elec panel. They'll be able to say if it's 12 or 14 at a glance.
I'd recommend that you not do this project yourself as it sounds like you haven't done much wiring. Either get a friend to show you how (it's not very hard), or hire an electrician. I'd guess that installing two shorty-breakers, and running a dedicated 20A circuit up to the tank would be in the ballpark of $300-400, but making guesses like that can be dangerous, so who knows.
You might need to do some drywall repair in the family room above the electrical box when he's done with the wiring.
OP
OP
nunofs
Non-member
The wire is white and stamped "14/3", so no luck in upgrading just the breaker
I've split the load between two 15A circuits, the kitchen (put the tank lights on an extension cord) and the living room (everything else) and it hasn't tripped so far... but both breakers are slightly warm (not nearly as hot as yesterday when everything was on a single breaker). I wonder if I could adapt this to a more permanent solution (eg, glueing the extension cord along the baseboard)...
Anyway, I guess I should do it right and hire an electrician... (btw, Nate, how can you tell I haven't done much wiring work? ) but there's one thing I need to know before I get someone to do it: would the electrician need access to the outlet that the tank is currently using? If so, then it's a no-go, because the outlet is behind the tank and there's no way to move the tank short of tearing it down...
Nuno
I've split the load between two 15A circuits, the kitchen (put the tank lights on an extension cord) and the living room (everything else) and it hasn't tripped so far... but both breakers are slightly warm (not nearly as hot as yesterday when everything was on a single breaker). I wonder if I could adapt this to a more permanent solution (eg, glueing the extension cord along the baseboard)...
Anyway, I guess I should do it right and hire an electrician... (btw, Nate, how can you tell I haven't done much wiring work?
) but there's one thing I need to know before I get someone to do it: would the electrician need access to the outlet that the tank is currently using? If so, then it's a no-go, because the outlet is behind the tank and there's no way to move the tank short of tearing it down...Nuno
NateHanson
Non-member
No, he wouldn't need access to that outlet. I would have him re-wire that circuit to a 1/2 height 15A breaker (can be done in the electrical panel, nothing will change for all those living room circuits). Then with the other 1/2-breaker space that is freed up, install a 20A 1/2-height breaker, and install a dedicated GFI circuit in the wall next to your tank, or behind your tank stand. You could even have him install a triple-wide box with 6 outlets, all GFCI protected by the first pair of outlets. The hardest part will be running the cable from the panel downstairs, up through the floor plates to the second floor. He might have to cut your drywall, but it will be easy to patch. You don't have a suspended ceiling in your basement, do you?
Nate
Nate
OP
OP
nunofs
Non-member
NateHanson said:
Would it be possible to use the existing wire to pull a new set of (thicker) wires through the existing holes? This was the way this kind of thing was done back in Portugal through brick/concrete walls that had conduits for the electrical wires... basically when you needed to replace wiring you'd use the existing wire (or a nylon thread that was left in place if the conduit hadn't been wired yet) to pull the new wire in... that way no damage was done to the walls (patching brick/concrete walls is a little harder than patching drywall
)Nuno
denvig
Time To Wake Up
NateHanson said:
The double (half height) breakers are the same amperage (it?s one double breaker). You can?t mix and match. What you will need to do is replace a 20 amp breaker with a double 20 to free up a circuit. If you have no existing 20 amp circuits then you will need to use a 15 amp and do the same.
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denvig
Time To Wake Up
nunofs said:Would it be possible to use the existing wire to pull a new set of (thicker) wires through the existing holes? This was the way this kind of thing was done back in Portugal through brick/concrete walls that had conduits for the electrical wires... basically when you needed to replace wiring you'd use the existing wire (or a nylon thread that was left in place if the conduit hadn't been wired yet) to pull the new wire in... that way no damage was done to the walls (patching brick/concrete walls is a little harder than patching drywall
Nuno
I don't think so you don't have that type of condiut you just have the wire.
denvig
Time To Wake Up
Another option if you have no 20 amp circuits is to remove one 15 amp breaker and replace it with a double 15 amp. Remove another 15 amp breaker and replace with a single 20 amp breaker. Reconnect the circuit that was on the second removed 15 amp breaker to the new double breaker. This will leave the new 20 amp free.
NateHanson
Non-member
nunofs said:
Yes, you can do that. I've replaced old or wrong-gauge wiring in my house that way. Attach the new wire to the old wire, tape it thoroughly, then pull it up into the outlet, and reconnect at both ends. That's really easy, but the problem is A) you don't have access to the outlet behind your tank, and B) you aren't simply replacing the wiring to an existing outlet - you're running a new outlet on a new circuit next to the old one (you have to run a new outlet because that outlet behind your tank is wired in with other outlets in the house, and you can't put a new circuit in that box with the wiring for the old 15A circuit still passing through that electrical box.
OP
OP
nunofs
Non-member
NateHanson said:
The outlet behind the tank is actually the second in a series of three that are on the same circuit... I believe the first one is behind the TV, which could be moved. I was thinking of pulling up to that first outlet, it's almost a straight line up from the panel which is directly under it.
My idea was to pull 2 sets of 12awg wires at the same time, one to replace the 14awg wire on the existing circuit (which would feed the TV and some of the tank equipment), and another one for the new circuit (dedicated to the tank). If I can get both wires together close to the tank, I think I could cut a hole in the drywall next to the tank and install a new outlet there... what do you think?
The way I see it, the biggest risk of doing this -- besides getting shocked
(I'd do it with the panel off, of course) -- is that if it fails then I lose the existing circuit in the living room...Nuno
NateHanson
Non-member
When you say you'll pull a 12 for the existing circuit, do you plan to put a 20A breaker on that circuit? If you do, you need to replace ALL wiring on that circuit with 12 gauge. That means any wall and ceiling fixtures on that circuit need to be rewired. I'd just pull a 14 for the old, and a 12 for the new. You might have trouble though getting two romex cables through the holes drilled in the studs for one romex cable. Depends how much extra space the electrician gave you.
I think it's worth a go though. It's easy to switch the breakers, and pulling cable shouldn't be too hard (getting into the boxes might be tough, depending on the type of clamp, and whether the box can be removed from the wall (probably not since the boxes are probably original to the house in your case). Get an "old work" box for your new 20A outlet.
I think it's worth a go though. It's easy to switch the breakers, and pulling cable shouldn't be too hard (getting into the boxes might be tough, depending on the type of clamp, and whether the box can be removed from the wall (probably not since the boxes are probably original to the house in your case). Get an "old work" box for your new 20A outlet.
