Economic Side of Our Hobby

How can you complain about not making enough money from a retail shop and then at the same time say it isn't economical to use that space for "storage"? I don't think I would call it "storage" since it would be using that space to bring money into your store. Depending on your location, you could even just put a storage trailer out back and have that be your "online" dry goods storage. As far as livestock is concerned...First person that pays for it (online or in store) gets it.

You don't get it. Retail space rent is based on location, location, location. My first store, the rent was $2 more per SF than my second store simply because the sign could be seen from the road easier. The better location you are in, the higher the rent. The lanlord DGAF if you plan to use a room for "storage", the rent is the same. It simply does not make sense to store products in a $15 per SF space. That's why you never see warehouses in strip malls. Cut's into profits big time. Keeping palets fo stuff in high rent space is counterproductive. I use my twocar garage at home to store equipment. At $15 a SF, that would cost me (er my customers) $1200 more amonth for rent. BTW, most towns do not allow storage trailers or PODS outside. Heck, my town won't even let me post a sale sign on the street.
 
You don't get it. Retail space rent is based on location, location, location. My first store, the rent was $2 more per SF than my second store simply because the sign could be seen from the road easier. The better location you are in, the higher the rent. The lanlord DGAF if you plan to use a room for "storage", the rent is the same. It simply does not make sense to store products in a $15 per SF space. That's why you never see warehouses in strip malls. Cut's into profits big time. Keeping palets fo stuff in high rent space is counterproductive. I use my twocar garage at home to store equipment. At $15 a SF, that would cost me (er my customers) $1200 more amonth for rent. BTW, most towns do not allow storage trailers or PODS outside. Heck, my town won't even let me post a sale sign on the street.

This is why the stores in NY split their orders with their brick and mortar indirect competitors. I'm not talking about just one or two, but as many as you can band together. In NY there are the big three pet stores, Petland discounts, Petco, and Petsmart. There are at least one of these in at least a 5 mile radius from whereever you are. But why do you think there are still small mom and pop LFS operations in NY. There are even more mom and pops then there are large stores. They don't just sit around and take it, they get innovative with sales and distribution, and also the order procurement. Some even go with a just in time inventory, so they can have a wide variety of fish, corals, and dry goods and just replace what was sold everyday. Thus maximizig variety and minimizing storage requirements. Or even better yet don't rent such a big retail space, but rent one that would be enough to display what you have and then have all the extras in a small warehouse nearby. There are plenty of ways around the disadvantages of retail rent pricing. This is less Business 101 and more advanced business management.
 
Oh boy this is a funny thread. Look what you started up again Bobby...LOL

Man, I could write a book about this (and probably will someday)

Honestly there is SO much I would love to get into here, but if I really did, 2 things would happen. 1. I would get fired, and 2. I would get banned from the forum.

If anyone really would like to discuss these issues, I would be more than happy to do so at length, anytime. Come on by the shop.


I will say, that it definitely is not as easy to "change" the LFS business the way some people are making it out to be. I have worked in the pet industry for 17 years (since I was 15) I have seen quite a bit change already. There are SO many factors and variables involved in making a business a success. Before any changes are made all of these need to be identified and assessed. It is just not that simple. Anyone that knows anything about business knows that.


-B-
 
I think this basic rant thread has really devolved into ideas on how to increase value (perceived or not) while decreasing overhead. Just to even up the footing with the online only stores. It may not be particularly easy and no major change in business process really is. Bigger stores have a harder time changing than the smaller flexible stores. These are suggestions that could be worthwhile to look into. just to clarify my position, i do mainly shop in one of the sponser stores, just because it's somewhat convienent(sp?) to my schedule, and i get to ask my crazy newb questions without getting totally blown off. Just voicing my opinion in business ideas from past case studies of other companies that have implemented some of the business processes to great success.
 
Less than if you pay $57 from the distributor.


Jeremy, I'm not saying you should sell Mag pumps. I hate the damn things. I'm just saying that a lot of LFS are buying from these distributors when they'd be better off buying elsewhere, or being more creative with their purchasing.

I think Jeremy's point was that anything being sold online for less than the distributor pricing is not generally something local vendors are going to carry because it is futile -- the required markup would put it out of the price range too many customers would consider reasonable.

In terms of buying elsewhere...that seems a bit of a stretch. Again, these stores have virtually no buying power when it comes to going direct to a manufacturer. And where else are they going to buy from? MD? As Jeremy points out, that isn't going to solve the problem because now your cost is still what the online retail is selling them for, thus you aren't going to be competitive.

Loss leaders can work but I imagine it is hard to pull off in the LFS world. Loss leaders work because of advertising -- people have to know you have a great price on something and be compelled enough to go get it (and hopefully buy other things while there). How many LFSs actually advertise -- that is, could afford to advertise a loss leader? I just can't imagine that is going to work out for them financially.

I'd say the group buys conducted on our site are about the only ways I see the loss-leader concept working for LFSs because it makes the cost of advertising more palatable (sponsorship)...but how many group buys do you see run? Not a ton. I think if group buys were making our LFS sponsors much money they'd be running more of them.

As Jeremy pointed out, competing online isn't easy either. In fact, I'd argue it is probably nearly useless in terms of drygoods. Who is going to shop from an arbitrary LFS when they can get the same products cheaper from MD and the like with a much wider selection to choose from? I'm not in the business but the only way I can see LFSs competing online would be with livestock, which would is no walk in the park either given shipping costs, mortality rates, and generally cranky/demanding customers.

Creativity, I think we all agree pretty much agree on. One way or another, businesses (no matter what they do) need to find creative ways to be more competitive. Maybe that includes doing things like bagging their own sand or hording dow-flake before the season ends...and much more no doubt.

FWIW, my understanding is that Inland Reef closed because the owner finally had enough resources to open the store he truly wanted -- one focused on astronomy.

Why are there three reef stores in close proximity in Southern NH? I'm not sure, but I'd venture a guess to say that there won't be three a few years from now. But either way, the point is that no store controls its own fate completely. Competitors move in and the market/environment is changed nearly overnight. There are unique challenges facing every business and while there may very well be some issues affect the industry as a whole, these unique challenges probably make just as big a deal as the more widespread ones.

And for the most part, if you aren't running the store then you aren't going to have a great grasp on the big picture (which isn't to say anyone's opinion doesn't matter, just that it isn't likely as cut and dry as one might expect).

I'm just glad I'm not in that biz.
 
> Inland Reef closed because the owner finally had enough resources to open the store he truly wanted <

While it's true that Matt wanted to move into Astronomy there are a bunch of other reasons that IRA closed. My understanding is that he had some serious problems getting various permits and pretty much got fed up with the whole process.
 
Greg,

It is not so much as problems getting the permits, he had them. It was the BS that Jon from MAS gave him(and a long complicated story at that) and all the BS that went on between them. (which resulted in the loss of said permits) And yes in the end just plain got fed up with it.

-B-
 
... anyone else ever wonder why there are 3+ reef LFS in Salem (NH), but not a single one anywhere near Manchester?

There are three in Salem because Salem is a shopping Meca. The traffic thru there is amazing. When I was a kid, I could drive rt 28 from Methuen north in a couple of minutes. Now it's a nightmare. From a business perspective, a good location.

BTW, I don't consider Petland a "reef" store. There is never anyone there to help you, dead fish floating in the tanks. I think they've changed quite a bit over the years. They use to have experienced guys working the fish area.
 
Actually, if you look at that "area", I count 5 stores. 2 get my business frequently, and 2 will never get my buisness (I don't know the other store well enough to have a strong opinion).

I'll just say that AG and AA both get my $, but generally for different reasons. To me these two stores aren't even direct competitors, If I drive up there I always go to both and enjoy both for their respective strengths. (And I do try to make a point of leaving at least some $ behind at each, becuase I don't want to see either go away.) CRA is not in that area, but IMO/IME they also do a great job of offereing a unique draw and they have an online buisness.

No offense to anyone, but to all the critics - if all the "they're doing it wrong" arguments are correct, then how are they all still in buisness? How about another LFS in the rt9 area that has the highest mark ups I've ever seen, they aren't out of buisness either?

Oh yea,
Jeremy, Marc, Brendon.... What do you guys know about the fish buisness and small buisness anyway? Given all that's been said in this discussion it's pretty clear that you will all be out of work by the end of the month, right? (well yea, Marc kind of quit that job already but my impression was that it was for totally different reasons?)

My $ .02. It's like America, it's easy to criticize everything about the way things are, but not nearly so easy to suggest a realisitic "better way".

jk
 
BTW, I don't consider Petland a "reef" store. There is never anyone there to help you, dead fish floating in the tanks. I think they've changed quite a bit over the years. They use to have experienced guys working the fish area.

Are you sure it's Petland Discounts? Because there is a Petland thats a national chain and then a Petland Discounts which is mainly a NY chain. The selections in store really vary from location to location. I've seen some that had large amounts of displays for fish and coral and then tehre were other stores that just had goldfish and bettas. But nonetheless NY has ALOT of competition and yet stores seem to survive the lower prices.
 
I will say that although I buy online a lot, you can't beat the service you can get at an LFS so I never want to see them go away. I wanted to say that because my first post in this thread came off a little more harsh than what I was trying to express. I buy online more because I am a college student paying my way by myself so savinga few bucks is important for my survival in the hobby during this point in my life.

I purchased a PFO MH fixture off CRA and Jeremy was answering my emails at 11:30-12:00PM! to help me with some problems I was having with my GFCI. You can't get that from MD, or any of the other places....
 
Tom, you make a great point about quality (above and beyond) customer service. That IS worth paying an extra couple of $'s to "support your LFS".
 
I once heard that advice is worth about what you pay for it. So if the LFS is willing to let you hang around and give you tons of good advice I'll pay a little more for the product to keep them around when I need help. Not to mention I like a place that at least acts like they care about my tank as much as I do.
 
There are hundreds of things that the average hobbiest doesn't know about the hobby. About how it starts, the middlemen, the pricing involved etc etc. From A to Z there are only a handful of poeple that actually know what goes on. Most LFS don't know either unless they are "in" with wholesalers, which most wholesaler wont allow.

Comparing live aquaria and a LFS is ludacris. Live aquaria is owned by who? Dr. fosters and smith who just so happen to gross over 200 million in sales last year with their pet lines etc. Do you think they really think twice about giving a 15 day warranty? If a 5000$ fish dies at day 14, they will refund it and it won't even be a hiccup for them. they will brush it off and move on. If a LFS loses a 5000$ fish, it is brutal and you are struggling to find a way to make up for it... why do you think most of the high end fish are online?
PLUS, most of the fish from Live aquaria aren't shipped out of there warehouse space... which is a whole different story that shouldn't be known to the public... Now we are getting into the wholesalers buying online stores so they can charge 250 for that black tang instead of the 400+ from the LFS only so they can make an extra 50 bucks...

I absolutely hate when people compare these big online guys to any LFS. Marinedepot will drop ship your magdrive rich to your door without it ever going to their space. Where does it come from? It comes from their supplier. Why can they make 10$ on a pump? because they never see it, they never handle it, and they never pay their employees to pack it up and ship it out. Everything is done from the supplier. Why does a LFS have to make 50$ on that same pump? OVERHEAD!!! It honestly probably cost the same to rent a warehouse where live aquaria is as it is to rent one a 1000 foot spot in Boston. The difference is enormous.

Going online is so much easier said then done. You have to get verified with the shippers, set up accounts (pay to get set up) hire more people to ship, buy boxes, buy oxygen, find time to run to the UPS or FEDEX stations, offer a guarentee, etc etc etc. There are numerous reasons why "just go online and compete" is out of the question for most LFS. For the first 5 months or so going online you will most likely lose money. not to mention the lack of space they have...

If you want to talk about unfair, talk about wholesale prices!!! Ill buy a fish for 4 and sell it for 6. The LFS will sell it for 30! wheres the justice there? :)
But it leads me to my next point...
Ill have 300 of those 4$ fish, sell them for 6. The LFS will buy maybe 5 of them. So to make the same as i would off that one species the LFS has to sell them for 120$... but its only because wholesalers move large quantities while LFS move very small quantities. There is a yellow tang "war" going on now in Hawaii about everyone undercutting everyone else for yellow tangs since there was a huge draught on them before this past drop in July. So if wholesaler A is selling them for 7, wholesaler B would say "i can beat that, how about 6?" and so on. Then a LA wholesaler will complain (sort of like most of you are doing :)) about "why is he selling them for 6 when you are selling them for 7?" so it is happening everywhere. hobbiest should consider themselves blessed. If wholesaler made the same amount of profit as LFS, yellow tangs would be a 100$ fish, flame angels would be 150 and so on. Stop complaining and be greatful we have LFS around to help us out when we need immediate assistance :)

aloha
 
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I absolutely hate when people compare these big online guys to any LFS. Marinedepot will drop ship your magdrive rich to your door without it ever going to their space. Where does it come from? It comes from their supplier. Why can they make 10$ on a pump? because they never see it, they never handle it, and they never pay their employees to pack it up and ship it out. Everything is done from the supplier. Why does a LFS have to make 50$ on that same pump? OVERHEAD!!! It honestly probably cost the same to rent a warehouse where live aquaria is as it is to rent one a 1000 foot spot in Boston. The difference is enormous.

Business isn't fair. We all know the LFS can't compete on price. We're not asking them to. We're asking them to give us something back in response to us paying more. A lot of the LFS aren't doing that.
 
Going online is so much easier said then done. You have to get verified with the shippers, set up accounts (pay to get set up) hire more people to ship, buy boxes, buy oxygen, find time to run to the UPS or FEDEX stations, offer a guarentee, etc etc etc. There are numerous reasons why "just go online and compete" is out of the question for most LFS. For the first 5 months or so going online you will most likely lose money. not to mention the lack of space they have...

So are you saying it would be impossible for a LFS to also have a website and start doing what the web distributors are doing? I would think that it would be easier to start a web distribution company after you have a brick and mortar business rather than starting cold with no infrastructure. And by the way a lot of businesses lose money during the first months if not several years after start up, the big web distributors had to go through the same process.
 
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