Need advice on new reef tank

[Dave T]

I just got home from a great reefy day! I first visited forum member Joe Rice, who was kind enough to have me over to check out his system. Very nice! Thanks Joe, I learned a lot and you were very helpful.

Then I visited forum sponsor Dong of Acro Garden (@dz6t). Wow! I can't wait to add some of those corals to my tank.

It was really cool to learn from a scientist reefer like Dong. He explained a ton about reefing. And he has some strong (and compelling) opinions that go against some of the prevailing wisdom of reefer hobbyists. Now my head is spinning! Being a total newbie, my only knowledge is based on what I've read online, which isn't really knowledge at all. But now I'm deciding on how I want to use what I've learned from Dong to modify the design of the system I'm planning. Some of this will be controversial, but Dong gave me permission to post this. Dong - please correct me if I get any of this wrong (quite possible). And if anyone wants to debate any these points, bring it on! lol

* Dong recommends running a reef tank at 75 degrees, not the 78 that most people say. Better for coral growth and health. He can refer to evidence supporting this...

* He recommends against having filter socks (or roller mats, etc) - they remove too much beneficial stuff, like copepods.

* He also doesn't like refugiums. This was really interesting. He referred to a study that had a tank divided by a semi-permeable membrane. The membrane would allow dissolved compounds to pass through, but no organisms. There was chaeto growing in one half of the tank, and coral in the other half. The coral became "sick", because the chaeto was releasing compounds that fostered the growth of "bad bacteria" in the coral.

* So, just a protein skimmer, water changes, testing, and dosing. No more gadgets, keep it simple.

* He warned me that the long run I plan between my tank and sump will cause issues - eventually "gunk" will grow or accumulate in the lines and restrict them. Ugh. It is what it is, not something I can change. Or at least not willing to change. Not sure how I will deal with that, I guess we'll run a spare line or two, and monitor the flow rate in the return pump.

* He also had a lot to say about lights and brand recommendations for various reefing components, that I won't get into here.

Thanks Dong!

 

[chadfish]

I just got home from a great reefy day! I first visited forum member Joe Rice, who was kind enough to have me over to check out his system. Very nice! Thanks Joe, I learned a lot and you were very helpful.

Then I visited forum sponsor Dong of Acro Garden (@dz6t). Wow! I can't wait to add some of those corals to my tank.

It was really cool to learn from a scientist reefer like Dong. He explained a ton about reefing. And he has some strong (and compelling) opinions that go against some of the prevailing wisdom of reefer hobbyists. Now my head is spinning! Being a total newbie, my only knowledge is based on what I've read online, which isn't really knowledge at all. But now I'm deciding on how I want to use what I've learned from Dong to modify the design of the system I'm planning. Some of this will be controversial, but Dong gave me permission to post this. Dong - please correct me if I get any of this wrong (quite possible). And if anyone wants to debate any these points, bring it on! lol

* Dong recommends running a reef tank at 75 degrees, not the 78 that most people say. Better for coral growth and health. He can refer to evidence supporting this...

* He recommends against having filter socks (or roller mats, etc) - they remove too much beneficial stuff, like copepods.

* He also doesn't like refugiums. This was really interesting. He referred to a study that had a tank divided by a semi-permeable membrane. The membrane would allow dissolved compounds to pass through, but no organisms. There was chaeto growing in one half of the tank, and coral in the other half. The coral became "sick", because the chaeto was releasing compounds that fostered the growth of "bad bacteria" in the coral.

* So, just a protein skimmer, water changes, testing, and dosing. No more gadgets, keep it simple.

* He warned me that the long run I plan between my tank and sump will cause issues - eventually "gunk" will grow or accumulate in the lines and restrict them. Ugh. It is what it is, not something I can change. Or at least not willing to change. Not sure how I will deal with that, I guess we'll run a spare line or two, and monitor the flow rate in the return pump.

* He also had a lot to say about lights and brand recommendations for various reefing components, that I won't get into here.

Thanks Dong!

One thing I just leaned.. employ methods and equipment as necessary. I have a refugium with chaeto but I’ve never had a nutrient problem. Answer: ditch the chaeto, monitor nutrients. If I need it in the future, I can always add it back in.

In the same vein, I know you have your set on a basement sump, but you might consider getting some experience with an under-tank sump first, get a feel for it, then you can always add one later. As far as noise, 95% of my tank noise comes from the overflow, not the sump.

Lastly, if you do put piping to the basement, I highly recommend putting the hole behind the wall. It’s impossible to repair a hole in hardwood floors. If you ever move, it will be easier to patch up.

 

[Dave T]

Ok, thanks. It's an outside wall, so I'm not sure if going into it is possible. But I'll ask my contractor. We do have spare wood for the flooring, so that can be repaired. But definitely cheaper to repair a hole in the wall than the floor, agreed.

 

[chadfish]

Ok, thanks. It's an outside wall, so I'm not sure if going into it is possible. But I'll ask my contractor. We do have spare wood for the flooring, so that can be repaired. But definitely cheaper to repair a hole in the wall than the floor, agreed.

Meh.. outside wall… that’s a different story for sure.
Can’t wait to see what you create.

 

[N_E_M_O]

Yup, im sure your head is spinning now.
Unfortunately reefing is like driving, theres lots of ways to do it. But like driving if you mix too many styles/methods/ways with not enough experience you can crash very easy.

While I agree with Dong on some points, I definitely disagree on some too.
After doing this and only this for a living for the last 30 years I have thousands of tanks and systems to pull experiences from. And have pretty much seen almost everything this hobby/industry has brought us.

Since, I love debates, especially r1eefing ones lol, I will throw my $.02 in on your above bullet points.

* As far as temp, I have recommended and have been running a temp of 75* for the last 20 years (against many peoples recommendations)
This is actually the true average temp of a healthy reef at the depth from where the majority of the animals we keep are collected. Not the surface temps that you see in SO much literature. I can remember even being chastised by members of the BRS for recommending a lower temp of 75* lol
But the lower temps allow more stability, higher saturated oxygen levels, lower metabolism on our organisms, and less aggression and competition amoungst Fish. Basically less stress for everyone in our closed systems.

*as for mechanical filtration. I am all for it, if done right. If not done right, then it can do more harm to a system, and definitely better to not do it at all. Personally, I am a big fan of roller mats. Filter socks would need to be changed every 24-48 hours or they can start adding nitrates to a system. And the nice thing about mechanical filtration, you dont have to run it all the time. So if you are concerned about stripping too much out you can run it periodically to polish the water. I have one system we only put filter socks in for 48 after a water change. This collects a bunch of detritus and debry stirred up from doing maintenance. Then the socks come off, until next water change.

*refugiums....ahh what a wonderful topic to debate. This could get its own post by itself, lol. But I will keep it brief. Basically if they are done properly they work great. If not done correctly they do very little if anything. Personally I take full advantage of having a seperate tank attached to the main system. When I do a refugium I have a few simple rules I follow. First is very low flow and turnover, second is always a VERY deep sandbed, third is a few different types of macro algae.
Again, I don't set up or rely on a refugium for fast nutrient export, for that I use an algae turf scrubber. The refugium will suck up the bad stuff more long term. Then I just take it pff the system and re do it, once it becomes saturated (usually at the 4/5 year mark)
If you can find it, I strongly recommend watching Julian Sprungs seminar on refugiums from a past MACNA

* KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. Words I live by lol
Less is definitely more. I couldn't agree more with Dong on this one. I basically run 80% of my systems with a skimmer, water changes, manual testing, and a doser.

*as for the long run and gunk building up. Same thing will happen to ALL plumbing. We replace ALL plumbing on systems we install every 5 years regardless. As gunk (detritus, sponges, algae, vermited snails, etc.) will build up in every pipe. But generally not enough to cause any noticeable difference. I replace more based on integrity. I have seen more PVC glue (especially when purple primer is used) start to fail on SW systems over 5 years old, than I care to deal with, lol. So just to be safe we always go in and redo plumbing around the 5 year mark. (Especially if it is a job I did not do originally)
But I have done VERY long runs in both private home set ups and in commercial situations. Plus when I set up LFS, the runs on those systems are insane, sometimes commulitively hundreds of feet. So I would not be too concerned on this point.

*Don't we all...lol
I would definitely defer to Dong on the lighting topic, as he has Basically reveresed engineered most units currently out. And clearly has an in with some Chinese manufactureres. Lol
But as you said this is a HUGE topic we won't even get into here.

 

[Dave T]

Thanks Nemo! How deep a sand bed and what types of algae do you recommend for the refugium?

 

[Dave T]

And is this the Julian Sprung video you’re talking about, the debate with Jake Adams?

 

[N_E_M_O]

And is this the Julian Sprung video you’re talking about, the debate with Jake Adams?

Yes, this is a very good watch!

 

[N_E_M_O]

Thanks Nemo! How deep a sand bed and what types of algae do you recommend for the refugium?

It depends on the tank and the whole system overall.

On one system we did a 40g breeder with 6-8" sandbed.
I did one system where we did a 20g long as a remote deep sandbed, it had 10" of sand in a 12" deep tank
Just need to keep in mind, seep sandbeds are a nutrient sink. Once they become saturated, they will leach the bad stuff back out. So they must be removed and replaced over time if this method/theory is incorporated.

As for algae I like a mixture personally, but all have pros and cons
Dragons Breath, Shaving Brush, and Cheato are my favorites .

 

[Dave T]

I watched the video. Very good, thanks. Dong actually also recommended it. At one point, someone cautioned against putting sand in the Refugium if you’re growing macro algae in it, because the light is counterproductive with what you’re trying to grow in the sand. I didn’t know that. I was thinking of putting something like marinepure cubes in the refugium. I assume you wouldn’t want them lit either? I guess they’d be better somewhere else in the sump, that’s unlit.

Another interesting thing in the video was that LPS doesn’t even need a skimmer, but it is beneficial to sps. And even then, you should only run your skimmer 6 hours a day, or else it becomes counterproductive.

 

[N_E_M_O]

I guess they’d be better somewhere else in the sump, that’s unlit.

Another interesting thing in the video was that LPS doesn’t even need a skimmer, but it is beneficial to sps. And even then, you should only run your skimmer 6 hours a day, or else it becomes counterproductive.

Your refugium should not be part of your sump, as no where in your sump should be lit. Ideally it should be a seperate tank.


I run a skimmer on my farm system, but dont keep a collection cup on it. Sonetimes I'll throw the cup on for a day here or there. But I have very few Fish in the farm tanks.
Reef tanks with a heavy Fish load or feeding schedule, IMO/IME should definitely run a protein skimmer 24/7

Protein skimmers emulate waves crashing on the reef. They saturate the water with dissolved Oxygen, excess nutrients get pushed away and removed, and they help removes old decaying H2O molecules. This happens 24/7 in the ocean, so why not in our tanks. Sure that can remove too much, but we can just add it back on very easily

 

[chadfish]

It depends on the tank and the whole system overall.

On one system we did a 40g breeder with 6-8" sandbed.
I did one system where we did a 20g long as a remote deep sandbed, it had 10" of sand in a 12" deep tank
Just need to keep in mind, seep sandbeds are a nutrient sink. Once they become saturated, they will leach the bad stuff back out. So they must be removed and replaced over time if this method/theory is incorporated.

As for algae I like a mixture personally, but all have pros and cons
Dragons Breath, Shaving Brush, and Cheato are my favorites .

Don’t forget about the plenum method. Risky, but works great if done right.

Lol @Dave T - there are more ways to run a reef than you can count. But I’m just trolling you here, don’t go down the rabbit hole.

 

[dz6t]

Skimmer is an interesting topic.
There are plenty of debates ever since its becomes affordable and popular in the hobby.
My personal opinion is to run a skimmer 24/7, just like Nemo said, the ocean does not rest. When you need to do carbon dosing to drop phosphate and nitrate, or ever think about dosing bacteria, a skimmer is absolutely needed, as it skim out the excess bacteria and enrich the water with oxygen.
On the topic of bacteria dosing, which is another can of worms, is becoming more popular these days. The science behind many bacteria products are shaky at best as we don’t have much understanding of what bacteria is good and good bacteria will become bad when over populated also. We have more idea of which ones are bad than good by the way. But if you ever want to do bacteria dosing, make sure you have a big skimmer running 24/7 or you will be staving your fish and coral for oxygen.

 

[Dave T]

Can anyone recommend an auto-feeder? We were planning on the Neptune, but I'm seeing a lot of bad reviews on BRS. Insanely loud, inconsistent portions, breaks easily, low quality, etc.

 

[srit1]

EHEIM

This one has been flawless for me for ~3 years. It is super simple and the batteries last a very long time (I am still on my original ones)

 

[coralfishreef]

Eheim fish feeder. Simple to program. I have several. No problems except for me accidentally breaking the food container release tab on one of them - fixed with some tape.

 

[Chris A.]

What they said

 

[Joe Rice]

Can anyone recommend an auto-feeder? We were planning on the Neptune, but I'm seeing a lot of bad reviews on BRS. Insanely loud, inconsistent portions, breaks easily, low quality, etc.

I have used both and find they both work fine. I like the Eheim because I don't have to run a wire to it. But I find both very difficult to adjust to deliver the right amount of food. It's pricey but I'm considering the one from Avast.

The Plank Automatic Feeder

The Plank auto feeder represents years of our efforts to find and build a device that both serves the needs of our most delicate and selective aquarium inhabitants as well as our ability to realistically attend to their well-being. Many reef fish and most corals have evolved to continuously eat...

www.avastmarine.com

 

[Dave T]

The reviews on BRS for the Neptune make it sound like the worst product ever. Plank looks cool. Would you use that for your primary feeder?

 

[Zirky]

PLANK!! I love mine works flawlessly with way more food options than the rest. The customer service at avast marine is first class they’ll even print it with white filament if you ask nice.