randys 2 part caution from randy himself

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One last comment, since I expect that few members here remember these tests but they were critical to my original recommendation of Dowflake.

I tested Dowflake for a couple of dozen impurities, alongside calcium chloride products from Kent (Turbo Calcium and Liquid Calcium), ESV (the B-ionic folks), and Warner Marine.

Purity of Calcium Chloride
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/chem.htm

The results show the EXACT SAME impurity profile for the Dowflake, ESV, and Warner materials. I'd go so far as to say they were exactly the same material, although they may have been graded differently by Dow.

The Kent product looked different, but not better, IMO.


The data is all in the above linked article.

 

[randoma]

Out of curiosity i wonder how much anyone is saving in the long run by using IO and getting the levels up over TM or TM pro......

I don't think the expense of raising your initial Ca/Alk/Mg levels in IO to TM comes anywhere near the cost difference between IO and TM. However, the initial levels are largely irrelevant in any tank that has a lot of SPS.

My SPS tank will drop more than 50 ppm of Calcium per DAY, regardless of what salt mix I start out with. Although I probably could keep up with that using kalkwasser and vinegar mix (straight kalkwasser would raise the pH level way too high), it is not something I could keep up with just doing water changes, regardless of the salt mix.

To keep up with Alk/Ca usage my only choices, as far as I know, are two-part and/or a Calcium Reactor. At over a cup a day of two-part, the cost to use B-Ionic would be extremely high.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, money is not a concern for me in selecting a salt mix. I do not buy IO because it is cheap. I buy it because it has a long and successful track record of success, better than other brands.

Other brands may be as good, maybe even better, but no one has ever demonstrated that to my satisfaction.

 

[Greg Hiller]

>Greg, dont you use this 2 part and do you think when you started using ozone this may be this was your issue you were having? maybe I missed it but how do you test for bromine?<

Ed,

I never tested for Bromine. This discussion is about a change to the way that the Dow Chemical company is purifying calcium chloride. The change in their process means that DowFlake will have higher levels of bromine (in the form of bromide) than in the past.

I don't use a two-part solution in my main 400 G SPS system. It would be pointless to do so. My experience in general has been that in systems with very high calcium and alkalinity demand using two-part solutions are not such a good idea. In the past (about 5 years back) when I tried once on a 65 gallon tank (using B-ionic) I was getting a lot of precipication on equipment, even when I added the alkalinity part slowly thoughout the day using a pump so that the pH never went too high.

In any case, I'm pretty sure all the bags of Dowflake I have are the older stuff. I only use the Dowflake on my main tank for occasional boosts to calcium, which even with the high levels of bromide would be pretty minor changes to the bromide concentration. I'm pretty sure that my problems with ozone were due just to using too much. FWIW, I didn't really loose anything from it, but I could see that a few corals were negatively reacting to the levels I was using.

 

[garyl]

>
I don't use a two-part solution in my main 400 G SPS system. It would be pointless to do so. .

Greg,

I'm curious as to the wording you used above. I (like most of us here) don't have as large a system as you, so maybe I haven't experienced what you're talking about - Why would it be pointless? Is it just the amount of each solution you would have to use? Or the fact that you have an excellent Calcium Reactor and it keeps up with demand? I seem to recall that you made the reactor yourself. The reason I ask is that I always seem to be fiddling around with my reactor and maybe it's time to invest in a better reactor and then I would only have to use the supplements infrequently.

Thanks,

Gary

 

[jrmx635]

instant ocean

I am watching a show on discovery hd called ":sharks under the glass"
they just showed the shark tank in las vegas who make their own water.
The guy they interviewed kept stressing how important it was to use the absolute highest quality salt mix to keep their sharks healthy.
The "high quality" salt mix they use is instant ocean.
Maybe they get IO the cheapest but I wouldn't think they would mess with a a shark that that costs that much.
Thius may not have alot to do with calcium levels but I was defending IO on being so cheap.

 

[Aquaman_68]

I am watching a show on discovery hd called ":sharks under the glass"
they just showed the shark tank in las vegas who make their own water.
The guy they interviewed kept stressing how important it was to use the absolute highest quality salt mix to keep their sharks healthy.
The "high quality" salt mix they use is instant ocean.
Maybe they get IO the cheapest but I wouldn't think they would mess with a a shark that that costs that much.
Thius may not have alot to do with calcium levels but I was defending IO on being so cheap.

Hey that HD what a picture huh!!!

The actions in your avitar are pretty much my response to your statement!!
Wowwwwww

 

[Greg Hiller]

>I'm curious as to the wording you used above. I (like most of us here) don't have as large a system as you, so maybe I haven't experienced what you're talking about - Why would it be pointless?<

Let me rephrase....it would be much more trouble than it would be worth. I would need a continuous drip of both parts. I would also have to be readusting the salinity in my tank very frequently. All that, along with the higher precipitation problems is why I don't use two-part supplements on large tanks, or tanks with very high calcium demands.

>Or the fact that you have an excellent Calcium Reactor and it keeps up with demand? I seem to recall that you made the reactor yourself.<

Yup, I made all my reactors myself. Not sure I'd call them excellent, they are Very rudimentary. But my experience has been that calcium reactors don't need to be all that fancy. I have very few problems with mine. They are built to last, but they are NOT pretty.

 

[marco67]

IO gets most of the big contracts like that.
Quality may or may not be the foremost driving factor, I would think that the ability to consistently supply these kinds of quantities would factor in. I may be wrong but I've never heard of another supplier selling this type of quantity.
So maybe IO is the "go to" because they are the ones geared up for the large distribution. (not implying that there's anything wrong with their quality either)

At MACNA Pitts they showed the process for salting the Whale shark exhibit at Atlanta. Picture a warehouse full of 1 cubic yard sacks on pallets I forget how many tons of salt, but they said it took 2 guys and a forklift working a day and a half to dump it all in.

I am watching a show on discovery hd called ":sharks under the glass"
they just showed the shark tank in las vegas who make their own water.
The guy they interviewed kept stressing how important it was to use the absolute highest quality salt mix to keep their sharks healthy.
The "high quality" salt mix they use is instant ocean.
Maybe they get IO the cheapest but I wouldn't think they would mess with a a shark that that costs that much.
Thius may not have alot to do with calcium levels but I was defending IO on being so cheap.

 

[dz6t]

Dr. Foster and Smith use IO in their aqua-culture facility.

 

[chew*]

Here's a funny example.........Hyundai and BMW.............BMW just flat out makes a better quality car but not in large quantities, they are family owned to this day and refuse to sell out..........Hyundai is a large company, they make cars for kia, themselves, they are into construction equipment and the list goes on......because there are "more" on the road does not mean they are better quality however.....there are also more in junkyards

As with "most" things in this world you get what you pay for, you buy cheap you get cheap.......

Btw i use IO, I also own a hyundai and just sold my used 98 bmw......to fix the transmission thats about to go in the hyundai......this will be its second "new" transmission, the first went at just over 60k and was under warranty, it now has just over 120k......

That said you really have to go with your pocket and what you can afford, but don't confuse quantity with quality.......

 

[randoma]

That said you really have to go with your pocket and what you can afford, but don't confuse quantity with quality.......

Also don't confuse price with quality. A Rolex is a really nice watch, costs several thousand, or more. A $10 quartz Timex will keep better time. Or, you can buy a $500 knockoff that will look just as good AND keep better time.

 

[dz6t]

A Rolex is a really nice watch, costs several thousand.

Several Thousand? Ten years ago may be.

OK, back to the topic.

Price is always associate with volumn. IO is cheap because of the large volumn producton and sales. Making artificial sea salt is not rocket science.

BMW is worse than Toyata and Honda in terms of reliability, I think I made my point.

 

[chew*]

BMW is worse than Toyata and Honda in terms of reliability, I think I made my point.

Sure if your a consumer whore and believe everything you read.

Then again when your a mechanic and you see cars come in alot for the same problems BMW really shines.....namely because you rarely have to work on it......

Lets not even go there about how long honda was putting out defective distributors........or that the acura legend v6 transmissions are junk......or that toyota had issues so bad with they're v6 that they had to do a recall....How bout the toyota celica , you can't get a used 4 cylinder motor for less than $1000 thats got about 150K which is extremely rare because the motor was junk the day it left the factory which is why the prices used are so high, not because its an import.................

 

[marco67]

Dr. Foster and Smith use IO in their aqua-culture facility.

Thats it I'm sold

 

[Liam]

.

Then again when your a mechanic and you see cars come in alot for the same problems BMW really shines.....namely because you rarely have to work on it......

QUOTE]

i am a master tech of 18 years and worked for BMW at foreign Motors west(before Herb ruined them) and i will agree they are a cut above toyota but believe me they have their share of problems.

 

[chew*]

.

Then again when your a mechanic and you see cars come in alot for the same problems BMW really shines.....namely because you rarely have to work on it......

QUOTE]

i am a master tech of 18 years and worked for BMW at foreign Motors west(before Herb ruined them) and i will agree they are a cut above toyota but believe me they have their share of problems.

totally know they have probs liam, just was pointing out toyota/honda isn't peaches and cream......

I'm quite aware of some of the issues but likely not all.....

 

[jacqur]

Great thread.

I agree with Mark. If Foster's and Smith are using IO than I'm switching over.

I found this thread very enlightening, and I rarely supplement. Thanks Greg and Randy, et al. for all the constructive and non constructive input. This is a good thread.

 

[Dave McReeferson]

A couple of reference points here that may help put some of the numbers being thrown around in this thread in perspective (these are both pulled from Wikipedia verbatim)...


"The diatomic compound Br2 does not occur naturally. Instead, bromine exists exclusively as bromide salts in diffuse amounts in crustal rock. Due to leaching, bromide salts have accumulated in sea water (85 ppm), but at a lower concentration than chloride. Bromine may be economically recovered from bromide-rich brine wells and from the Dead Sea waters (up to 50000 ppm)."

and...

"Bromide is present in typical seawater (35 PSU) with a concentration of aroud 65 mg/l, which is around 0.2% of all dissolved salts"

 

[Dave McReeferson]

Also from Wiki...

"One can test for a bromide ion by adding dilute nitric acid (HNO3), then silver nitrate (AgNO3). A cream precipitate forms that disappears in concentrated ammonia solution."

Could something like this be used to test bromide levels in our systems???