Thoughts on Ich eradication run fallow 3 months vs start over in a FOWLR

[mvallee]

After a bad ICH outbreak that killed and sickened a majority of my fish I am starting to wonder if I should just start over with my DT as opposed to running the tank fallow for 3 months.

My current plan was to remove the remaining fish to a 90 gallon QT tank I am setting up this weekend that I am going HYPO in and with my DT devoid of fish let it run for 3 months empty other than the live rock and CUC to break the Ich cycle. I have about 190 -220 pounds of Rock 70-90 of which were live rock bought from established tanks and the rest base rock that is turning live.
or
Would I be better off to drain and dry everything, pulling the few pieces of Live rock with mushrooms and cool stuff on it and put those in a separate tank with my existing CUC they are all in a 29 gallon tank now as I started dropping the salinity in the DT already and drain and dry all my Base rock tossing out the sand then buy all new sand or possibly go bare bottom and just basically start over would that be better?

I am trying to think of the downsides and would this approach be more full proof or at this point I should say fool proof please let me know what you think they might be;
- how long would it take for the base rock to be dried enough to consider them pest free?
- It is a big 180 gallon tank bought brand new 3 months ago any risk to the silicone sitting empty for a couple months.
- I could add my saved live rock with mushrooms and other assorted cool stuff after the three month waiting period to give the system a boost or should I just dry that out too after all this work?

I know there are no guarantees and I am not a quitter but if I had to watch this happen again I would never try again, it is/was heart breaking.

 

[CoralJunkie]

Just run it fallow

 

[Andy V]

I would run the DT fallow and do proper QT moving forward.

 

[ro_nicu]

drying out the rock is a pain, if you want to kill everything on / in it that's a different issue.
killing everything alive on that rock is a matter of pouring a couple gallons of bleach into that tank, does not take long at all. rinsing all that will take a couple of days of running water and some good sloshing.
regardless if you dry it out or bleach it it will have to be cooked again, all that bio matter will start decomposing as soon as hits the water again.
the tank will be fine with no water in it for years, i'm yet to hear of a tank where the silicone dried out, my 75 gal was stored dry in a basement for more than 3 year when i bought it and the silicone do not show any sign of hardening, cracking or anything else.
if you want to save any of the rock you might as well save it all and not bother with drying, sterilizing, etc, just move all the fish - no host no parasites; the ich will die out, not sure how long it will take though, in fresh water it's about 1-2 months, salt water ich somewhere between 3 and 6 months depending on what you read and who you believe.
than there's the people that do not believe in eradication but preach "ich control" saying that ich is a natural parasite for fish and a healthy fish will not get an outbreak or suffer long term effects from ich as long as there's no environmental factors that will stress it's immunity system to the point of an ich outbreak.

regardless of the way you go you will have to follow through, the more often you change your mind the more time and money this will cost you. just decide what makes most sense for you and keep at it.

 

[stingythingy45]

I thought you were already in the process of doing hypo in your DT?

 

[JohnK]

I would say give the tank a good solid fallow period.

Tearing everythign apart and drying and or sterilizing will be a lot of work, and then you will have a lifeless tank that's going to take months to get re-established.

By going fallow, you will allow the ick do die out (just everything I have read says 8-12 weeks, with 12 being much more reliable) and meanwhile the various microfauan will have a chance to get established populations going and the tank will have much more developed food webs and such. We often talk about cycling in terms of the basic nitrogen cycle, but there is really much more than that, that happens as a tank matures. Some aquarists (mainly european) will reccomend running a tank for a year before adding fish or otherwise stocking.

My only caution would be that if you let the tank run for a few months you'll start seeing a lot of life pop out of that LR and you may find yourself wanting to go reef insted of FOWLR when the time comes.

 

[JohnK]

I thought you were already in the process of doing hypo in your DT?

I think he was in the process of going semi hypo (1.017) as a stop gap.

 

[stingythingy45]

Yeah,but isn't semi-hypo just as good as semi doing nothing?
The only thing 1.017 sg will do is put all the CUC in near death mode.

Here's a great article about Cryptocaryon for the Op.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

 

[mvallee]

not rushing into anything just yet that is why I am asking opinions and so far so good I love all the perspectives

I started going hypo in my DT tank and was going to go all the way but got some advice not to go all the way in there due to the die off of the live rock so stopped at 1.017 where it should help to control the ich and they are less likely to reinfect the fish while I setup another tank big enough for all my fish this weekend. I have a 90 gallon coming tonight. I was told most fish stores will run lower salinity as a way to keep the pests at bay and I was hoping I could get my fish healthier in 1.017 without too much die off of the live rock causing ammonia spikes which the fish don't need right now. My ammonia and nitrite still 0's but nitrates are creeping up currently between 20 and 40.

I think I have some kind of secondary infection on the fish though, getting cloudy eyes my DF puffer can't see right now and the porcupine puffer's eyes are super dark. The tang's eyes seem to be getting glossy too, not foggy but glossy if that makes sense.

I don't know what to do really but staying the course to go hypo 1.009 in a separate tank and wondering how or if I should treat for a secondary infection and if I do should I do that first before I start the true Hypo treatment.

Yes QT from now on.

 

[mvallee]

wow lots of posts between when I started typing my response and hit submit thanks so much!

 

[mvallee]

all the CUC that I could find have been moved to another QT tank running normal parameters and are quite happy there, and yes john that 29 with the most interesting of my live rock and the CUC including a coral banded shrimp is really nice to sit and watch but I do love my puffers and all these tanks running is going to kill me.

 

[JohnK]

I was the one who suggested the semi hypo, and yes, it's not a cure, rather it will slow things down a bit as you figure out the plan. Semi hypo doesn't often get talked about since most of us keep reef tanks so it's not an option, but in this case it seems to be.

Also I was the one who said that about fish stores using semi hypo. I don't know if that's all that common anymore, but it used to be.

I agree, doing it right for a full treatment and fallow period is ideal. You could even combine tank transfer and hypo for what would should be a very effective treatment. (think rubbermaid tubs for the transfer part).

For the secondary infection issue, IIRC there are some antibiotics that can be used during hypo treatment, but I really counldn't advise you on that off the top of my head. I'll suggest reading through the stickies, in the RC fish disease and treatment forum, and possibly starting a thread there if you can't find your answers.

 

[stingythingy45]

"I don't know what to do really but staying the course to go hypo 1.009 in a separate tank and wondering how or if I should treat for a secondary infection and if I do should I do that first before I start the true Hypo treatment."

This is the best route right here.
Use a lot of the water from your dt to fill the 90 gallon.
You're only going to need pieces of PVC in there for the fish to hide behind.

BTW,just so you know.
Hyposalinity can be done in the DT if coral and CUC are removed.
It is done quite often with members on RC and they have been quite successful doing it.
The biggest issue I had when I did hypo in a hospital tank was an green algae bloom.
But, after all was said and done I lost just one fish,my blennie.

*yes,I remember now that dropping salinity some can be therapeutic to the fish and slow down their metabolism.

 

[mvallee]

but in the DT with lots of live rock as opposed to a bare tank won't going full hypo cause a cycle as everything dies off, not sure I can keep up with those kinds of water changes in a 180 to keep the levels stable enough during a cycle with fish in there, that is my concern with continuing in the DT.

what is IIRC?

 

[stingythingy45]

IIRC= if I recall correctly.
Or at least that's what I get from it.

Have you received a refractor yet?

 

[stingythingy45]

BTW,I think that you are doing the right thing not rushing around and panicking.
The best thing to do is keep a cool head about this situation and then make a rational decision and stick to it.
Definitely treating in a hospital tank is the way to go. Then clean/sterilize and reset it up again as a QT when the fish are cured.

Depending how sick the fish are you might be able to do a dip on them.
But,I would caution against it if they're not looking too good.

 

[mvallee]

yes I have been using a refractometer to maintain my salinity and twice daily top offs to keep the it stable

stingythingy45 when you went hypo did your live rock have a die off, did you go down to 1.009? that is my only fear it took me 3 days of RO water production to get down to 1.017 from 1.024 if I had to do massive water changes I don't think I could handle it.

 

[stingythingy45]

When I went hypo it was in a hospital tank.
I don't have nay experience with doing hypo in a DT as I have a reef tank.
Most people that do this on RC have FOWLR tanks.

 

[mvallee]

ok thanks still sticking to the plan then.

now to see what types of antibiotics would be good in hypo, I sure hope
a. I can cure them and get them healthy and
b. no permanent damage like blindness.

I just noticed my porcupine puffers eyes when I shine a flashlight on them are completely clouded over ugh!
parameters are spot on with nitrates just a little high and lots of water changes over the past couple days so has got to be some kind of infection and if hypo is not a cure for that then..... I just don't know yet

 

[stingythingy45]

Don't even worry about nitrate.
It's not going to cause any issues with fish.
Just watch for ammonia and keep the fish good and fed so they stay strong.
Not sure what diet you're feeding the fish, but make sure it's nutritional.
And don't be fooled if the fish all of a sudden look better. Next time it returns it will be three fold.