Alternate Nitrate reducers....

[Snidgetless]

I don't think that is the solution for me. If the tank is producing that much waste and is effectively breaking down all the ammonia and nitrites, and the system is just struggling with nitrate removal... dilution is not the solution. The solution here if nitrates are being produced at such a consistent rate is to figure out a better way of removal. One is to change out the bed of CC, not something i want to do... second is removal of the wet/dry which i will be working on, third is an outside source of nitrate removal, in this case the reactor. Although water changes are a temporary solution, i would need to be consistently changing the water out on a weekly basis to keep these levels down, not a reasonable option.

 

[nickyblase]

I think you'll be surprised with how much a 5 gallon bucket filled with sand as a RDSB can make a difference. It doesn't take up much room either.

Check out the threads on RC that Anthony Calfo started that talk about it.

And I agree with Brendan - I'd be doing weekly water changes of at least 20% to try to get that down.

I had a FOWLR tank before converting to reef, and did water changes every week. I over fed, was overstocked, and had an okay skimmer, and my nitrates never went above 40. Water changes are key on FO tanks.

 

[JustDavidP]

Dilution is the solution.

That's what I tell my wife about my drinking B

Dave

 

[saltwaterB]

I am not sure if I follow your comment.
If the system is handling Ammonia and nitrites, and Nitrates are building up and accumulating, then I would think that dilution would be the answer, maybe I am missing something here. The system will not breakdown or remove nitrates fast enough naturally. It may work in a reef but IME not in a FO.
I don't think that you will have to change water constantly, but frequent large water changes are how most people with FO tanks keep the nitrates down. Aside from buying nitrate reactors, which in your case I do not think would be necessary.
Also, in a FO with heavy feeders, I am not 100% confident that I would remove the wet/dry (personally) They are great filtration methods for quick the breakdown of ammonia and nitrite. I have seen some people remove them from FO and never have been able to have their liverock keep up with the demands of the tank.

just some food for thought.

Hey Dave,

I think we should dilute together...

-B-

 

[JustDavidP]

I think we should dilute together...

'tas been a while brothah.. you know where to find me!

Dave

 

[Snidgetless]

Oh boy, well B i appreciate all the help. I'm not sure at this point what to do then. I can continue the large water changes no problem, i just thought that something else is going to have to be done in order to combat the high nitrates. It just seems to me like the tank is very efficient at getting to this stage in the waste cycle, but there is just too much nitrate constantly being produced to get rid of it solely through water changes. Maybe in my case with such heavy feeders i am not going to have a choice. I just thought with a small nitrate reactor running on the side it would be a perfect solution since all my other levels are more or less spot-on. I guess my resistence is because i feel like the tank should be more effective at breaking down this last part on its own, and that 20 gal a week water changes lets say i thought to be unreasonable.

 

[JayM]

I think that a FO tank needs a 20% or more WC weekly....once the nitrates are under control.

I would do a minimum 50% WC first, then do more weekly.

the 43 gallon brute rubbermade is a good template, and it takes almost a bag on IO from a 200g box if it's filled to the top

 

[saltwaterB]

Honestly, I wish it were that easy.

I am not saying that you should not look into nitrate reactors, but as I am sure you will find researching them many people have mixed results with them. I was merely pointing to water changes as more of a sure thing, and one that you are in complete control of. Again, as far as I know there is very little as far as nitrate breakdown in our tanks. It is mostly exporting nutrients via macro algae, skimming, and some may say a deep sand bed. Unfortunatelly I don't think there is a one answer solution. Every tank/system is going to be a little different. I would try a few 20-30gal. water changes over the course of a week or so and see where that brings you and monitor how quickly it comes back.

Also a few other things to keep in mind (and I have no idea of your practices, I merely mention in case it was overlooked)
Use Ro/Di water not tap water
change/clean mechanical filter often
rinse all food well (with ro water if possible)
watch the ash and protein content of the foods that you feed



Also I am not aware, but what type of skimmer are you using?
what else do you have in the tank for fish?
How many lbs of liverock do you have in there
what type of flow/circulation is in the tank
do you keep an airstone in the tank to keep high oxygen levels?

-B-

 

[JohnK]

We talked before, but I didnt' fully grasp how much bio load your dealing with. That said, I agree with what B said on the bio balls, might be a good idea to keep them. If there is this large an amount of waste being produced, you may well need the "nitrate factory" to keep the water liveable for the fish.

I'd also be concerned that the nitrate reactor wouldn't be able to keep up. It really sounds like there is just way too much fish poo to process any way other than an aggressive water change schedule.

 

[Cardiak]

More macro algae. If you dont have a sump to place it in then get/make an acrylic box with an open top and plenty of slits for water flow. Place it against the glass inside your tank with its top touching the the top of your waterline and use a magnet to hold it in place. Once its steady put a ton of cheato inside and let it grow. To battle nitrates you need something that gets rid of them and from what I understand you dont even have any macro algaes sucking it out of your system as it is.

If you do this correctly it should look just like a black overflow box in the corner of your tank and you will get the same benefits of a refugium except it will be inside your tank instead of below it

 

[randoma]

I think I may not have been clear about the 5 gallon RDSB - I suspect that even a single 50lb bag of play sand in a 5 gallon bucket will have a dramatic effect. The surface area of a 5 gallon bucket is actually larger than my 31qt (not 21qt) trash can - my trash can is just deeper. However, I suspect that there's diminishing returns as the DSB gets deeper. So, a 16" DSB is not twice as effective as an 8". I don't have any real data to support that though!

My seahorse grow out tank used to have over 200 sub-adult seahorses ranging in size from 2.5" to 4", as well as a large number of peppermints and other cleanup crew. It had an RDSB with 100lbs of sand - with 20% water changes per week, nitrates generally stayed in the 5-10 range.

This was a bare bottom tank, with a 20 gallon trash can for a sump. The sump had 100lbs of HD play sand and 30-40lbs of Marco Rubble. No skimmer. An AquaClear 70 hung on the sump for mechanical filtration. I floated bioballs in the sump as additional bacteria area, however they weren't used in the traditional way that you'd use them in a wet/dry so they never retained detritus. Total water volume of about 80 gallons.

For the first 4 weeks I siphoned the bottom daily, removing roughly 2-4 gallons of water/day. (About 3% WC/day) Once a week I did an 8 gallon water change. So, about 30% WC/week. After 4 weeks I went to siphoning every other day, but kept the weekly 8 gallon. About 4 weeks after that I went to 1 bottom cleaning/week plus the 8 gallon WC - so about 12% WC/week. The highest nitrates ever got was 20 and that was a result of my leaving a dead fish in the tank overnight.

Oh yeah - only tap water. No algae problems and the house didn't burn down....

That said, dogface puffers are really messy. Even though seahorses are reputed to be messy eaters, one dogface puffer is probably equal to 50 seahorses. Also, they eat all the cleanup crew... I don't know about lionfish or morays.

 

[biggyclops]

AZNO3 works great to lower nitrates.. i am using it now.. had 10 to 20ppm.. and lowered it to zero in a week!

 

[Snidgetless]

Also I am not aware, but what type of skimmer are you using?
what else do you have in the tank for fish?
How many lbs of liverock do you have in there
what type of flow/circulation is in the tank
do you keep an airstone in the tank to keep high oxygen levels?

-B-

I am using a Euroreef skimmer though i am unsure of the exact model. I really didn't think that the bioload on this tank was that extreme. Its a 92 with a 20 high below. Volitan the size of a football, 2.5' zebra moray, dogface about the size of an orage and a 10" Lucatanse Wrasse. I have just about 100 lbs of LR, with a Koralia 3 in each corner of the tank. I don't have an airstone in the tank though Greg Hiller was just mentioning something about it the other day... I guess maybe i was just way off thinking the tank could handle its inhabitants... but maybe i am wrong? To answer your last question the only mechanical filter really is a pad catching the big stuff before the wet/dry and that gets changed out every two months.

 

[Snidgetless]

More macro algae.

I don't think this is a reasonable option for me as i would have to change all my lighting around. All i have illuminating the tank is an actinic to give the tank its blue hue, i don't have any white light in it at all.

 

[Snidgetless]

AZNO3 works great to lower nitrates..

Went through a whole cycle of that stuff and it hardly made a difference, lol. I'm telling you, this is starting to get under my skin. But i do want to say to everyone i really appreciate all the input and help, it certainly doesn't go without notice. It seems for now i need to step up on the weekly water changes, slowly add more LR rubble to the sump, leave the bioballs in, still don't want to change out my substrate... but maybe, and i will look more into the nitrate reactor. I mean all the other levels are good, its just the nitrate removal i am struggling with.

 

[JayM]

Is there any option for a chaeto ball lit by a light in your sump? The sump light would be a few bucks, and you can get some serious nutrient export....

 

[Snidgetless]

Hmm, it would involve mod'ing an alright pretty tight sump with the wet/dry and the skimmer... the chamber would only be able to be like two inches wide, lol. Its a pretty tight space this is in, thats why i went with the corner tank. Funny thing is too it was perfect as a reef tank, i thought FOWLR should be easier!!

 

[JayM]

fish make way more waste than corals

I like my 92 as a reef tank too....

 

[Snidgetless]

So i thought i would at least post a couple pics of the guys that are making me lose my hair....

 

[saltwaterB]

I would have to say that is a pretty good bio load you have in that system. I don't think it is way overboard, but it is definitely stocked up. With a stocking level like that I would plan weekly to bi weekly water changes of at least 20% (20 gal) to 40% (40 gal) as needed. Maybe a few 20% changes then once a month a 30%-40%. Once you get the levels down to where you want them, this should be enough to keep them in check. Otherwise try feeding less. Only feed exactly what they will eat. If you don't mind me asking what is your feeding schedule (what, how much, how often) A FOWLR usually is a lot easier. The main things to watch in a FO are PH and Nitrate (as opposed to a reef, constantly testing many parameters) Also a FO is much more forgiving than a reef.
I would also recommend changing or cleaning your mechanical pad as often as possible (way more than once a month or two) I change mine out every week to every other week. These pads will trap debry and cause it to breakdown slower, usually resulting in excess nutrients, which will lead to more nitrates.
I have had mixed results with AZNO3, but I will say I have had more positive results than negative. But the trick with that stuff is having a really good skimmer. From what I understand, the active ingredient is a polymer. This polymer binds with the nitrate ion, thus making it removable by the protein skimmer. I would be leery of this only because at some point if not removed the bond may break and it may revert back to Nitrate. So like many chemicals, I do not recommend it unless it is your last resort. (I always choose natural methods first) It could really just be masking the Nitrate from our test kits??? Also just to note, I have had much better success with their product -PO4, which is their phosphate remover.

-B-